Use of indicators when overtaking

LiM gave you the answer - you should have waited till the on coming car had passed you (then this whole thing would never have happened)

But as it sounds like you positioned yourself inappropriately, thats where you never took on board the available info (receive info). You saw a rider that may be a burk and you could/should have pulled back in - cause he is human and we humans can be expected to do stuff like that. :smiley:

^^^ Yeh sure. This is London we’re talking about here. Wait til there’s no oncoming traffic before doing an overtake, when there’s a perfectly good few feet in between!?
I’ll try that next time and see how many other bikers I can pi$$ off behind me :wink:

I think the difference here is between Motorway riding and town riding maybe?

I rode down the M1 this evening, and half the motorway was lit up like daylight…of course you can see around you, like you can during the day.

Riding in town where the street lighting is a little more subdued and the light from cars appears a little brighter, it is a different story.

I say you cannot drive out of London down the Highway towards the Limehouse Link and determine what vehicles are behind you.

The glare of headlights is just overwhelming, and one more headlight in that grouping (and we are talking rush hour here) is neither here nor there in the mere seconds you have to look.

I think I know the city you’re talking about, I think its the same city I’ve been commuting collectively for about 20yrs from Essex to Hatton Garden. I manage what I suggested to you and very few people keep up with me.

There are plenty of techniques to reduce the near scrape you had (yeah, theres an app for that!). I’ll post a link when I get home (for anyone who gives a sh1t). It may not be 100 applicable but the principals are the same because it mentions things we do wrong like overtaking INTO an area that we cannot see to be safe or in your case relying on the moush coming the other way that you met! :wink:

I know a guy that banged shoulder to shoulder with an on coming rider. It ripped the nerves in his shoulder and he can ride no more. :frowning:

Only trying to help by suggesting an alternative view, you get that when you post on an open forum :kiss:

Fair point well made.

Its given me something to think about - cheers.
I still maintain that of the oncoming biker had used his indicator whilst overtaking, his presence would have been made sooner.
After all, next time instead of it being me there, it might be a car/bus passing a bicycle who fails to spot his oncoming headlight.
It wasnt me that executed an overtake either. All I did was poke my nose out a foot or less (as far as the white line) for a look.

Do please post up any links you have.

(Im not saying its impossible to spot an oncoming headlight btw. Just easier with an indicator)

Well said, not like I didn’t commute from slough to E1 on a daily basis in under 40mins every day for a number of years or still use a bike and car to commute on various pitch black country lanes/motorways/built up City/town roads on a regular basis… Niteowl I said it wasn’t a dig at you and as sneaky said you will get replies whether you like them or not on a forum, but it doesn’t seem he actually did anything wrong & personally I’m a little concerned you and chaos can’t spot a headlight oncoming in the middle of the road between oncoming and same way traffic… Especially chaos not being able to see them in his mirrors - because mainly, if a biker can’t see a biker then what chance does a cager have!!! Might as well make filtering illegal chaos so the only thing in a cagers mirror really will be the gap between two cars… Sorry the breaking distance left on purpose that they need to get into because they couldn’t move into the right lane 100yards earlier despite knowing they were coming off at the junction because they have done the same route for 5years!

That other thread is there but I cant see the links? I have registered on the site to try and obtain them. I dont think anyone disagrees that the extra lights of an indicator helps us to be seen, I think what we all need to think about is that what happens when we “assume” - assume the other road users will have seen us, assume they wont pull out, assume that they can hear or see us? In putting our faith in someone else we assume will/wont ********* leads to A&E :smiley:

The info was here:

It was so dark yesterday morning and the fog didn’t help either. I was in my van, stationary in traffic so I was actively looking for bikes in my miss or as one of them was going to be Claire and she stops to say hi.
Tell you what… Couldn’t see a bike until they were on my bumper :w00t:
Cars were changing lanes and a bike would have difficulty stopping in that distance. Please be aware that even if we are looking for you we can’t see you. Dazzling headlights in the mirrors and all :confused:

SeanR1 let me just clarify this…

We are talking about “while moving” yes?

Obviously, if you are stationary, you have all the time in the world to look around, what I am talking about is while moving, and being required to focus on the traffic ahead, and being forced to use your mirrors and shoulder checks to understand the picture that is BEHIND YOU…which I have repeated several times.

You have had legitimate chances to back down from an overly enthusiastic comment, you could have said…Oh you mean inner London lights, fine…oh, you mean in the middle of rush hour, fine…

I have now given you another chance…oh you mean while moving in rush hour traffic when it is impossible to second guess what is going on ahead, with lemming pedestrians jumping out of the pitch black wearing black clothes and cyclists appearing at right angles out of the line of traffic without bothering to look at all, with idiots on mobile phones weaving around in their lane paying no attention, with scooter riders more concerned with the amount of time it takes them to commute than their own safety pulling ridiculous manoeuvres to save 20 secs, yeah of course when relying on snatched glances over your shoulder or in your mirrors it will be extremely difficult to discern 1 vehicle over a cars length behind when your view and your mirrors are filled with the glare of headlights.

I suspect you won’t take this chance.

I won’t bother arguing with you though, because I simply don’t care if you want to maintain a myth in your head.

Anyone on this forum who might be thinking, yeah SeanR1 has argued a good argument, he must be right…will go out one day in the rush hour, in London, facing more obstacles than I think you face anywhere else…look in their mirror…do a shoulder check…and say…wtf is SeanR1 on about, can’t see **** here.

If you cant look in your mirror and spot a biker behind you in London - get off the f**king road or stop filtering - Ive commuted in london for a number of years during rush hour and have no problem seeing whats behind me or in front of me & i know a lot of bike couriers that will say the same… although even if they see you they dont fecking move! lolFrom everything you have said Chaos - its seeming more and more like your a hazard to yourself & others and i would be seriously worried to be anywhere near you whilst commuting in London!

Yes and you seem to be overly proud of how fast you can do it, as if somehow this is a measure of anything other than stupidity.

As I said, I don’t care, continue the myth in your head.

How can it be a myth if its physcially tried and tested? You always seem to think your right, not the first time you’ve been wrong on this forum though!

Hey girls… handbags at dawn :smiley:

BTW. I am well proud that I do my bike commute into the city
quickly, (which doesn’t preclude safely too).

Isn’t that one of the top reasons why we ride bikes?

Back on topic… No I do not use indicators unless I’m turning as it would
confuse other road users.
( For the pedants: caveat… that’s when commuting on busy London roads
obviously motorways, etc. are different )

I do wonder why I bother posting things on here at times. To me it seems obvious. A situation where additional information (indicating) to other road users (oncoming traffic) to help facilitate a manoeuvre, considered by most to be one of the most dangerous a biker can make.
There was no possibility of confusion. No side turnings imminent.
Instead I get shot down.
I consider myself a fast rider. Im also a safe rider. Im always constantly learning and actively trying to learn by questioning my own and others riding. Whether it be effective braking, road postioning etc.
Ive been on the road in one form or another for a loooong time. Cyclist and car use for over 25 years (15+ years no claims). Ive had Rospa car training, skid pan training. I drive in central London for a living! 7 hours a day dodging peds, taxis, boris bikes etc. Ive been riding motorbikes for 5 years doing 10,000m a year in all weather, all roads. Motorway, country lane, central london…night time and day.
In that time and im being honest, I’ve dropped it ONCE. A highside from standstill due to cold tyres.
The one thing I’ve learned in all that time is “NEVER think because you dont have an accident, you’re a good rider/driver” There are thousands of cagers tailgating each other at 90mph on the M4 that have never had an accident. Until one day when it all goes tits up.
MY key to my relative accident free driving/riding history is observation. Everything you do, everything everyone else does, means nothing if you cant see or be seen.
Im not perfect. Nobody is. That’s why I keep thinking and asking.
If you want to ride the way you do, go ahead. I’ll take on
board your comments and ride a little more defensively.
I only hope the idiot/learner you WILL eventually meet has good insurance.
(Not aimed at anyone specific)

I beg to differ, ask my mum! :smiley:

Thinking about this further… (apologies for kicking the subject to death) but
Next time youve a stream of heavy traffic coming towards you at night. Constant speed and distance apart, (when safe) have a good look at what you can actually see.
Most likely you will only see the offside headlight of each car. The lead car will block out the direct line of sight of the following car’s nearside light and so on. Add in the siluette effect from the light itself and your brain fills in the gaps and assumes your seeing a moving queue of cars. (Esp if one of those cars has high intensity bulbs)
Put another single headlight (ie a bike) where you would expect to see a car’s offside headlight and that’s why a bike CAN be missed.

Understood, but could the indicator on a bike look like the indicator on what your brain has told you was a car?

At night I’d be looking for light patterns through the glass of the car and the light pattern on the road between the wheels of the on coming car. Bikes behind cars often move left to right just how you and the other bike were. This can give an idea of whether its a bike behind the oncoming car by the light pattern.

But if you cannot see the area behind the oncoming traffic, consider your positioning so you have time and space to move back in. There will be no time for a left lifesaver (because of the closing speed of you and the oncoming bike) before you move back in so serious consideration should be given to moving beyond the cover the traffic that you’re following.

"Understood, but could the indicator on a bike look like the indicator on what your brain has told you was a car? "
Regardless of whether its a bike or car indicating, they would be looking to move right towards the crown of the road and I would abort any thoughts of an overtake and fall back in behind the car in front…

“But if you cannot see the area behind the oncoming traffic, consider your positioning so you have time and space to move back in”
You are absolutely right on this. I wasn’t that far out but the oncoming bike needed the space along the white line. My decision not to move out further was the right one but based on the width of an oncoming car. Not additonal bike. Based on the information I had (IPSGA) I was fine.
In situations like this, accidents can be avoided by the one party (ie me) recognising the potential danger others place themselves in and making allowances.
He made a chancy overtake, I was unable to spot him. He could have helped himself and me, by indicating but thats something I’ll remember for next time.
Even though I WASN’T strictly at fault, I wont make the same “mistake” again. He probably never gave it a second thought and will continue to make the same move, until he learns the hard way.
One of my favourite sayings is “there’s no point being dead right”.
You’re obviously clued up Sneaky so hopefully this all makes sense.

I think like most of the contributors to this thread, I’m in agreement with you. I think we’re just more realistic about our expectations and we expect others road users to do what appears to be daft stuff. I make my own phuckups as we all do, I try to be honest and recognise them cause I don’t look good in a surgical gown.

Not sure about me being clued up, I was taught a system to ride/drive to. When I phuck that system up things can go wrong, so it must work! :wink: