See this is why i like Zander, he makes so much sense!!
Aww, shucks. You get off this silly debate, and go enjoy your amazing adventure! Getting out there does change your whole appreciation of life I’m sure, and how amazingly nice and generous such poor people can be.
Still a darn shame I didn’t see you in Cambo - another time 
The problem I find with your argument is that it more supports my view point Zander.
If you can’t afford the rent, move in with your parents, move away, move abroad?
Yet you don’t think these are indicative of an inherent problem? Neither of my parents had to live with their parents, move away or move abroad to afford to live in London, they could find employment that while it wasn’t top notch pay, they were able to live on it, and raise a family.
Yet now our answer is…if you can’t afford it move away? Not let’s try and change the system, not let’s try and improve the situation via social and economic reform…no, our advice is move away?
But this is why we have schemes such as work experience placements! To eneable people to get back into work, thereby having a chance to move onto better things and get themselves off the benefits system! You’ve gone full circle in your argument!
The only way to get what you are suggesting is to make the minimum wage up to a standard where everybody can afford a nice lifestyle and live comfortably yes?! So, what if that happened? Have you thought about that?
Have you considered that nobody would then want to do certain types of job because the incentive of a better lifestyle through better wages isn’t there anymore? Businesses would be running at losses because they have to pay this larger minimum wage, and the only way to counteract this is to lose a few staff. By doing this the remaining staff have to work harder and take the job of others onto their workload as well. Eventually everybody ends up on a web forum saying “THERE HAS TO BE CHANGE! WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE WAY IT USED TO BE?”… Can you see where I’m going with this?
There is no magic pill which will solve the problem! What we need to do is quite simple. Get more people back into the workplace, and forget about all this stupid class system that people seem to be so worked up over. Some people are destined to go to the top and become rich, others are destined for lower paid work, whether it be through lack of skills/education or a lack of thrust and a goal! If your wages don’t quite cover your rent and bills, you are living beyond your means. However, you can still claim certain benefits to help you! It’s common sense! :doze:
If you wish to have a better lifestyle, go and do nightclasses and better your position! Apply for the better paid work. Meanwhile you can still have the basic lifestyle. Like I said, this idealtic world you seek is not there Steve! If you still believe that society owes us a lifestyle, well that’s your belief. Lets see how much you still feel like that when you see most of your wages being sucked up into the taxmans net and disseminated to the people you are most likely going to see in courtrooms in your near future! The bloke who’s never worked a day in his life, has never contributed to society, and yet feels that he deserves his lifestyle to be funded by the very people who he goes out and robs/assaults/burgles etc… Come and speak to me in 5 yers time and show me you haven’t seen it from our point of view, and that you still beieve everybody is owed something by this society! 
If I can’tuse my hose, but the government can use water cannons, is this not anotherexample of how we really are not all in this together.
(Which was theunderlying obscure point being made in my very first post. In that a number ofallowances are being made, be it the Olympics and Visa getting tickets theworld consumers will not buy in a free market, or Employment low income andlarge corporations not contributing to a fair wage. The flaying field is beingmade uneven for reasons less to do with equal opportunities but more with externalinfluences which benefit some but not others, which always ends in the exploitationof somebody).
i feel dizzy from round round in a metaphorical circle.
You see, this debate is never going to end, because the author believes that everything is going to be solved based on facts and statistics,
let me put this to you Kaos -
The world does not work that way - FACT
And also as you know Kaos (because you so often do it yourself)
Facts and statistics can be manipulated to indicate what ever the author wishes to protray, by only showing the facts that they wish to show, and not the full picture
Isn’t my entire argument based on the idea that we should be attempting to fix that, and our failure to do so is the cause of our problems?
Pretty sure it was.
I would like some facts on your highlighted point below, to see where you are coming from on this.
Is there any data on the migrant economy?
How many people, statistically, are here in the short term? What is the evidence?
What evidence is there as to the roles they are working in in the UK? White collar / blue collar jobs etc?
How much are they spending on average as a proportion of their wages and is there any estimation or evidence on the proportion of wages that they are taking home to their countries of origin?
Is there any facts re numbers of migrant workers who stay in the UK and build a life for themselves and numbers of migrant workers who return to their countries of origin?
Thanks
Hels,
All information available here
1,
Labour Force Survey data for 2006 suggest that the three most popular sectors for foreign-born workers in the UK are public administration, education and health (32%), distribution, hotels and restaurants (21%) and banking, finance and insurance (20%). Among A8 immigrants, the top sectors are distribution, hotels and restaurants (24%), manufacturing (21%) and construction (14%). In some sectors and regions, the share of immigrants is much higher.
2,
Among new immigrants in 2005, 44% said they intended to stay for 1–2 years (up from 35% in 1996), followed by 19% who said they intended to stay for 3–4 years, and 30% more than 4 years (down from 39% in 1996). Among A8 workers registering for employment in the 12 months to September 2007, 62% said they intended to stay for less than one year (including 57% saying that they would stay for less than three months). As intentions may change, these data cannot be considered reliable indicators of
immigrants’ likely degree of permanency and length of stay in the UK.
3,
But A8 immigrants are more concentrated in low-skilled jobs, with 38% in elementary occupations and only 13% in higher
skilled occupations.
4,
The biggest beneficiaries from international migration are migrants themselves, as employment in higher-income countries enables them to earn higher wages and incomes than in their home countries. Immigrants’ families and, in some cases, the economies of their countries of origin may also benefit.
(This is due to remittance, the turning of money home from a migrant worker)
The other aspect that you have asked here is pretty difficult to quantify, I can point you to the “Shed Ghettos” that were all over the BBC news recently, I can point you to the example I gave earlier of people sharing a house, which was not designed for that number, simply to lower the rental costs significantly, but providing any sort of accurate data would be difficult because immigrants come in all different shapes and sizes and behave differently to each other.
Lastly, I think that information is contained above, but the problem is of course that you can register saying you intend to stay for 2 years, but you might well change your mind.
"Isn’t my entire argument based on the idea that we should be attempting to fix that, and our failure to do so is the cause of our problems?
Pretty sure it was."
I’m pretty sure that your opening statement in this thread was a rant about how certain companies were taking advantage of the offer of people working for free, and then stating that this made the young generation feel bad and that it somehow gave them reason to loot and vandalise their neighbourhoods when the occasion arose. I’ve quoted it below just for clarification… 
"Then we wonder why young people react in the way they do when presented with an “opportunity” to steal with very low risk, as that presented by the riots last summer. Are we creating a society that applauds taking advantage?
Used to be a time when someone feel over people went to their aid, now they see an opportunity to steal from them.
And we wonder where they get it from? Really?"
So, what part of your opening statement, which is the basis for this discussion/argument has stated that we should be attempting to fix it, or that not doing so in the first place is the root of the problem? Looks like a rant about big companies, and you trying to blame the lack of work for the rioters looting and violence. :ermm:
Isn’t it also a bit strange to you that a lot of the people who were subsequently caught in the following investigation had previous criminal records? I believe it was about 75%. Do you think the majority of the looters were from the “working class”? I think you’ll find that it was people from all backgrounds. Milionaires sons and daughters, University students and graduates, people who worked in the very same stores they were robbing.
Do you really beleive any one of them thought “This is a great way of showing the country how upset I am about being unemployed/on minimum wage/looking at the prospect of having to work hard for a living”, or do you think it was a little more animalistic and spur of the moment? Have you studied crowd dynamics and mb mentality? I have, and these are the exact characteristics that were shown by the looters durig the riots. “If they can do it, so can I, and if there’s enough of us doing it we can’t all be caught!”
So, going back to the original opening statement, no I don’t think we can lay the blame on the government etc… The blame lays firmly with those citizens who CHOSE to go out and riot, destroy property and steal! Nobody else!
Finally, in answer to Hels question you seem to have quoted some statistics that are at least 5 years old. What bearing does that have on the sweeping statement you made? We are five years down the line from the latest of those statistics. Surely you must have current statistics to back up your “FACTS”. Or is it just as SteveWright said and you are shoing only the facts that you wish to, in order to prove YOUR point?!
Apologies for my spelling and grammer, my keyboard is useless and keeps missing letters unless I hit them dead centre! 
I don’t think I ever said that gave them a reason. What I think I said was that by presenting the image of a society that allows people to take advantage that this sends the wrong message and makes other people think that it is ok to take advantage.
I think that statement is very different to the one you have just accused me of making.
I am sorry if the subtleties of that statement eluded you, but I think by presenting a situation and suggesting a casual link between that and something bad that the underlying message is that we should be attempting to change it.
Also not sure where in my statement about that I said this only applied to certain groups. I think my statement was a broad statement about the way in which our society applauded taking advantage, and that this may have an effect on the behaviour of people when presented with an opportunity to take advantage.
Not sure where I singled out one group. The discussion moved on because people, rightly or wrongly, always wish to blame the poor for the problems in our society, and I defend that debate by trying to show that it isn’t about what the poor think or do, it is about the way our society works.
Again though, it is not about blame, I am not blaming Government or Society for the actions of those in the riots, what I am saying is that is the behaviour of our society and Government sending out the wrong message to individuals, and should we be surprised when this message is heard by those individuals and acted upon in ways which we are not happy about.
Change the message and you may change behaviours.
I found the statistics that were available, in the time I could be bothered to look for them.
If Hels wants to find more upto date statistics that show something different then she is welcome to try.
I think you will find though that statistics are generally done a few years after events have happened so that all the data can be collected and compiled, and the sort of data that Hels requested comes from a lot of different sources and needs to be examined. I gave the source of it to show that this data comes from various places and is compiled in that format for Parliament.
The “facts” that I relied upon were in relation to unemployment levels and the economics of a capitalist system, the ideas that I spoke about were never put in terms of facts, just as the ideas expressed by Rixxy that Eastern Europeans work harder was never expressed as a fact, but merely as an observation.
Or should I be the only one beholden to providing facts when all that is expressed by those offering a different opinion is observation?
Where are YOUR facts? Or Stevewright’s facts? Or Rixxy’s facts?
You have provided no facts at all to back up any of your arguments, merely observations. I have provided a number of facts and figures in support of my argument.
So when I first started work in an office and earned £55 A WEEK, working for a small structural steelwork firm, how should I have felt? Exploited ?
When I got my next job a year later earning about £150 a week, working for a profitable National Building and Engineering Contractor, on a building site , how did I feel then ?
Then after I got my degree and got a job with a salary of £12000, how did I feel ?
20 years on how much much I earn and how I feel about it about is my business, but how do I feel?
Tell you what I felt - I felt I worked to impress my boss. I felt I was glad of the opportunity . I didnt care about how much more the boss earned than me, because I knew that one day, I might just be the boss. I worked knowing what I had earned and experienced was all I was going to get for the time being, and I lived within my means. I moved out of my paernts house at 18 . I played by the rules. I had no financial help. I didnt work especially hard or have 2 jobs at once. I decided what I wanted to do and did it and did an OK job of it. Not brilliant by any means. But I got out of bed early… 6 days a week and have my share of sleepless nights.
This is nothing special. I went to a Comprehensive school, nothing special. We live in a certain environment and many of us realise that we have to survive, but people do it in different ways. Some cheat and moan and blabber, some dont. Who does the best for themselves and is the happiest ? Those who adapt to their environment, earn their money, challenge themselves, pay their taxes, or those who try to smash it up and steal? You can guess which camp I am in. Help yourself, ask for help- ask nicely and you might get some, but dont take the pi$$.
Anyone want to buy and office or shop or a nice restaurant overseas, PM me. Having just finished building these, me and my partner could do with selling a few more… thanks to the Euro mess and countries who cant live within their means, it could be a while.
Right get back to work you lazy fuggers 
^^thats exactly why its called ‘work experience’, most of the time it doesnt really matter the kind of work you do, mostly is interacting with your work colleagues, how you present and express yourself and how to be part of a team. those are the very key of success, and it will also teach you good discipline, i.e. to wake up on time in the morning to be at work, to have only set amount for your tea breaks ALL OF THOSE YOU LOOSE VERY QUICKLY WHEN YOU’RE ON THE DOLE.
Again mere observations. No facts, no figures, no examples that we can examine independently of you.
This seems to be all that you people seem to do, regale us with the tales of how it worked for you, but neglect the idea that for other people perhaps it didn’t work? Perhaps they worked just as hard, but didn’t get the breaks you did, who knows, because it is anecdotal evidence which we can’t examine for any indication as to why it happened or compare to anyone else in any other situation.
It is just such a pointless way of trying to debate a social and economic problem. I did ok, so therefore this extrapolates across the entire country to every single individual, if only they had worked as hard as I did.
If this is the entire basis for your opinion, then your opinion isn’t worth anything.
You don’t think that “earning” is a part of work experience? Showing people what it is like to go to work and to earn money and to provide for yourself and to budget?
So why is it excluded in the example I have given.
no.
if i wanted to learn a new job i would go and do work experience for a while, i’ll be just happy to be able to move to a different career and i will go without pay. for a while. i wont feel exploited but i will leave if they havent offered me a job obviously after that.
they also used to have ‘apprentiship’ but its on the way to extintion these days
i do like your points of view, i do like a good debate BUT i dont think you shouldnt get your facts and figures over the internet, its so wrong on so many levels.
Steve, I think you’re just making this **** up as you go along. And whenever we raise a valid point or observation you change the goalposts and say that our view it worthless or pointless because we haven’t provided facts and figures. This after you’ve just said yourself that you gave the facts that were available at the time and you could be bothered digging around for more, and that Hels should look herself if she wanted more. So that would make those points you made nothng more than a view or idea as the “facts and figures” were not only out of date, but also pretty much specuation by the people stating them!
You’re telling us that we can’t use personal experience because it doesn’t show facts and figures. How do you quantify work experience, pride, hard work?
Of course it doesn’t scan across the board. Some people work harder than others to try and acheive their goals in life.
Some don’t bother, which is exactly what I’m about to do.
I’ll leave you to dream of your little utopian empire, where everybody loves each other and only has to work a 3 day week to live in a mansion with a supermodel. :doze:
P.S… Ever think of running for government? They seem to be just like you lately. It’s like pinning fog to a fu**ing wall!
You can’t just keep posting up personal experience and expect that to be meaningful. At most it is a single experience as seen by a single individual. 60 odd million people, different races’ gender, age,’ sexuality, race and religion. What can one persons experience really tell us?
I disagree SilveR6, and while you put it in terms of “career” what we were actually talking about is stacking shelves. Not really a career move by anyone’s standards.