Taking Advantage - Issues in Our Society - Part of Problem behind Rioting?

Off-topic
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They don’t pay the same cost of living Rixxy.

You totally missing the point. They are NOT living in this country as we are living in this country, they are not contemplating raising children here, they are not thinking about buying clothes, they can do that at home, they are staying in this country for the short term, spending as little as possible while here, so that they can take as much as possible home.

Bit of a broad stroke there mate. Does this apply to Martha as well? What about my other friends from various countries in the EU? What about the officers who work with me? Are they all sending there money home on a monthly basis and planning to go home and buy a busisness in 5 years time? I think you see where I’m going with this! :satisfied:

Yes, there are work tourists, who will work there butts off and send the money home. But equally (probably more to be honest) there are many hard working europeans who come here to set up a life because of the reasons Rixxy is pointing out. We have an opening in the market for cheap labour, mainly because our own unemployed are not interested in working these jobs. There are also a large amount of people who come here with no intention of working. They intend to simply claim for every benefit, drink themselves into a stupor and occasionally rob people to fund their new lfestyle!

If you don’t believe me, go take a walk down Whitechapel High street any evening of the year. I’m sure you’ll see plenty of examples of the poor little souls who are, according to you, “victims of society”. They’ll be the ones fighting, drinking until they can’t stand and generally causing havoc.

Or perhaps the Romanian gangs that specialise in distraction thefts, who teach their children to steal from the day they are old enough to be wrapped up in a cloth and hung around their mothers neck. Are they victims as well? I seem to remember reading last week that £millions each year are sent back to a certain area of Romania where the gangs originate.

These, again, are people who I actually deal with on a regular basis. And the general consensus when I speak to them is that the UK is some form of promised land because they can come here and get free everything, without ever having to work! Yes, the system is broken! But it’s not being helped by people like yourself who instill the ideology of “This country owes me” instead of kicking peoples arse in the right places, and forcing change for the better, enabling the country to sort out the lazy boneidle f**kwits of this country and get them contributing to society rather than living off it like a leach! :crazy:

Don’t even get me started on Benfits Cheats, or the people who break the law by dealing drugs and robbing people, then blame the system because nobody will give them the job of their dreams! :doze:

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I understand the point of experience Roadrunner, as a pupil you earn a minimum of £7,500 every 6 months for the first year, that is £15,000 a year, the same as the person working at Tesco btw.

How much do you think I can earn AFTER that pupillage? Do you think the person working at Tesco can earn anywhere near that amount with their great "experience"?

The idea is that they are gaining skills in order to show to a future employer that they are capable of doing a job. They won’t walk away with managerial skills after 8 weeks, but it may get them into a new job, which in turn coud lead to a new career! It’s not an overnight thing! Same as you, there has to be a goal! Any experience is better than the ZERO experience being gained sat at home! You are actually starting to sound a bit elitist in your attitude that somebody would be unable to gain valuable experience by working in Tesco’s. People skills are invaluable to any employer nowadays! :wink:

No, you should only be working for literally nothing when it is towards a goal that matters, when you are just doing menial labour you should simply be paid for it.

Who told you that they are not working towards a goal? Who said it was going to be menial labour? You’re being very narrow minded about what people in the retail industry can acheive, skills wise. Maybe they’re not going to be a barrister in the next couple of years, but maybe they actually enjoy working in that industry.
For all you know the people on this scheme may be offere work in the wharehouse out the back, where they learn the black art of stocktaking. You may laugh at that, but somebody has to do it, and everybody has to start somewhere Steve!

Perhaps you should speak to some of the people who have taken part in this scheme, or you could get some figures on how many people went on to gain further emloyment thanks to the skills learned in this scheme.

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Kaos,
i’m not sure where you live but i’ve been in ealing for a while now. in the last 5 years as soon as the border opened there has been a massive immigration and i can guarantee you, you go around here and very little minority speaks english anymore. they’ve come to work, they are enjoying what they’re doing and they are bringing up families. THEY’RE HERE TO STAY.
just come to the ace on friday and you’ll realize what i’m on about…:smiley:

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Kaos,

referring to your comment on Post #920325

“You totally missing the point. They are NOT living in this country as we are living in this country, they are not contemplating raising children here, they are not thinking about buying clothes, they can do that at home, they are staying in this country for the short term, spending as little as possible while here, so that they can take as much as possible home.”

On what basis of FACT have you got this information from?

it sounds more like an opinion to me…

65

And for the record, all of my “opinions” are based on true experience, let me fill you in a little…

As you know, i come from Northern Ireland, in fact i was born in Belfast to a working class family.
I grew up, got an education, left to go and find good work, a better education and a better job.

Ive also worked in Tesco, for low wages, all part of the big plan of trying to better myself.

I have never lifted a petrol bomb, or taken part in a riot because i felt that society owed me anything.

Do i now feel guilty that i have been successfull for what i do to date, or that like anyone else in business, will look at every possible and legal way to pay as little tax as possible? NO

Will i try my best to give others the opportunity i have been given? YES

66

Roadrunner,

I don’t think the average Eastern European making a life for themselves in the UK is any more hard working than the average UK person. Take your example earlier of taking a sandwich making job just to make ends meet while you worked on something else, are you the only one that behaves like this? Of course not.

The ones that work significantly harder, in my opinion, are those that are working short term with no intention at staying and are burning themselves out in the short term because they know it is not a long term situation.

As to the skills gaining aspect of it, yes that is my point entirely, I am gaining proper skills that will aid my future, taking on menial labour tasks I don’t believe are gaining you any significant or worthwhile skills.

It is the same in my borough SilveR6. I don’t see any significant difference between those groups making a life here and people who live here. As Roadrunner pointed out, there are hard workers, there are criminals and there are lazy people. Claiming that there is a significant difference isn’t realistic, and only applies to a small subset that are, as Roadrunner pointed out, work tourists.

Stevewright…

When you can come back with some facts, I might bother to reveal some facts, as it is I think it is a bit rich that YOU now want to claim my answers as opinions, given that you referred to working tax credits but weren’t able to reveal a single facts about them to back up the claims that you made.

My opinions are also based on my experiences, like my mate living next door to a 3 bedroom house with at least 12 polish guys living in it hot bedding (its hard to tell the exact number as they come and go so regularly but we have come to know at least 12), one wakes up, another goes to sleep, real lifestyle choice for the long term there, I am sure there are some conservatives who think we should all live like that, back like the tenement ghettos of the late 18th century perhaps.

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Good point about war there…it is undeniably part of the economy. I’m getting suspicious now that we’re only considering letting Scotland go so we can invade them for the water…:rolleyes:

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kaos, i do not need to “claim your answers as opinions” when you use the word opinion twice in the reply in that one message for your response…

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i also think that your comment " i think it a bit rich…" shows that you have crossed the line of having a reasonable debate in which one can weigh up the pros and cons from all points of view, and are taking things unreasonably personally in an open debate in which you started, but are now feeling uncomfortable with the outcome

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You can’t claim a reasonable debate where you pick out something, like working tax credits, then refuse to express any further evidence to back up why you claimed it.

Reasonable died the moment you did that.

And it is a bit rich of you to now expect other people to live up to a standard that you did not live up to.

71

still this obsession with working tax credits

is it because students, volunteers,charity workers and people on strike do not qualify for it that you are on this particular crusade?

you seem to forget that facts can be found as easily as google, for pretty much any of your facts that you post, but it does not mean that what you have to say is any more important than any one elses.

it takes proper thought and co.sideration however, to take fcts on board and form a rounded opinion

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and just to remind you, i have consistantly expressed that i beleive this debate is not reasonable, and i never picked out working tax credits, that one came from you…

73

What you said was this:

the working class will get housing benefit to top up the rent, so they can afford to live in these places (and certainly do not need to earn 60 grand a yr) where as the middle classes who work hard, good salary (such as £38k) get crippled because they do not get free hand outs from the government…

This is working tax credits, that is how it works for those that are working and still receive housing benefit.

I asked you to expand on that, you never have explained just what it takes to get the benefit, what levels of income, what families are supposed to live on while receiving the benefit.

There are limits to this benefit and you could easily find them.

You don’t bother, because as I have said before.

There is no rational debate with you, it is ideology, this is what you believe, doesn’t matter what the facts are, you are not interested in the facts or the reality, you have a particular world view and it is enough for you to say…housing benefit goes to the poor! How it goes to the poor, in what circumstances, what level of poverty people need to be in? Irrelevant to you.

Then you want to talk about reasonable debate?

It is not possible.

I put information out there, facts and figures, and yes sometimes opinion, in the hope that some people read it, I don’t expect to change their mind, but maybe a little of that information will seep in, get combined with other information and some life experiences and perhaps in due course they might change their mind.

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KAOS: There is no rational debate with you, it is ideology, this is what you believe, doesn’t matter what the facts are, you are not interested in the facts or the reality, you have a particular world view

Hello Pot, this is Kettle… :w00t:

75

I always provide facts mate. In fact I do believe I had the piss taken out of me for doing so.

Yes my views are ideology, but they’re based on facts.

I said to steve earlier, provide some facts, prove me wrong and I will have to rationalise that.

If he came back and showed that working families received housing benefit in such a way as to show that they were better off then middle class families that were working and paying them same, then I would accept that.

Of course I would fit it into my ideology, I would argue, like I have with you, that this is because the system of working, wages etc compared to the cost of living is broken, but I would have accepted the point made.

76

Steve, you’re a very idealogical person. However, like every other person on these threads, you don’t base everything on facts! You base a lot of your arguments on the ideology of a subject, then introduce some facts (sometimes literally plucked from the air or guessed at by yourself, by your own admition!) to try and sway people to your way of thinking! :satisfied:

I put information out there, facts and figures, and yes sometimes opinion, in the hope that some people read it, I don’t expect to change their mind, but maybe a little of that information will seep in, get combined with other information and some life experiences and perhaps in due course they might change their mind.

Why do you feel the need to change anybodies mind, when you point blank refuse to take on board other peoples experiences in the matter? Any number of times, on this thread alone, you have had points made and questions asked by myself and others, and you have merely talked your way around the subject or question, usually by starting another completely different slant on something! This is why you are so difficult to have a proper discussion, because you won’t take on board others views or accept that sometimes you really do say things based on your own idealist thoughts on things, or that others may have a point! :ermm:

Once again, you’ve started a thread with the sole intent of drawing people into a discussion, for no other reason that I can see, in order to make yourself look like you have a superior intellect. And, once again you’ve shown that you are incapable of having a levelled discussion without spitting your dummy and stamping your feet (not literally of course) before telling everyone the error of there ways and going on to argue that black is white and pointing out tiny indescrepancies in peoples arguments, or even more infuriatingly demanding facts when (as far as I can see) you have none of your own, except what you’ve guessed at or trawled google for.

I give up, and am going to drink some wine in my rediculously expensive flat, which is all payed for by my hard work without even a hint of benefits from the government! :satisfied:

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Kaos your a nice bloke BUT you got no idea mate, you mix fact with opinion and this includes on subjects which you clearly no a little about but not enough to call it a fact. FACE THIS FACT - WE have a HUGE problem with self expectant, lazy individuals in this country. People NEED To be in the game to play the game, be it volunteering for charities, working at tesco’s short term to gain experience or whatever it is. Its not easy out there if you want to do well, but these lucky lucky people have the option to sit at home with a roof over there heads and enough money to buy some hash and some food to last them a week if thats what they choose to do, and YOU, ME and every other working idiot is paying for it!!
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I do not ignore people’s experiences Roadrunner, I just point to the wider picture.

Rixxy.

I can’t believe you are going to claim agricultural jobs as the measure by which migrant workers are superior to local English people, look up the Morecambe Bay tragedy and tell me why English people should leap at these jobs?

So not working yourself half to death now equates to being lazy? Impressive turn around.

So your anecdote of your fathers situation, which we can’t examine, can’t explore, don’t know the full ins and outs of, somehow extrapolates to everyone else in every other situation?

I am sure those people are coming here simply because there is such an abundance of work which English people won’t do, nothing at all to do with the conditions in their own countries.

You make a claim of me Rixxy and then do exactly what you have accused me of.

Yes there are some, a tiny minority in fact, in this country that refuse to work, and I say that this is NOT because they are lazy and self expectant but because we have created in this country a situation where going to work no longer pays.

As Roadrunner himself said, when being unemployed and gaining the minimum amount the Government will give you benefits you more financially than going to work…there is a problem with the cost of living compared to wages.

It is fanciful to think that people should get up and go to work for 40-48 hours a week and gain nothing from doing so.

We have the same opinion on the problem, but the difference is you want to blame individuals and I want to blame the system.

79

Oh man … anyone who thinks society owes them something is on a slippery slope to disappointment.

I came across a phrase a few years back … “show don’t tell”

Related to “show” - I’ve just been watching “Mary’s Bottom Line” - a good series and shows some great personal moments of young people coming off the dole to work - it probably says much of what I believe better than I can on here - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/marys-bottom-line/4od

To chip an oar in …

It would be nice if Tesco paid. But if Tesco had to pay, why would they bother with this complex scheme rather than just employ the best regular employees they can? Maybe never giving these work-experiencers a chance. It takes time and money to train someone up to do a half decent job.

These Olympic volunteers are just one side effect of the organizers desperately trying to stay under their next budget level. I will be semi-pleasantly surprised if the Olympics is actually “good”. Though watch out for another recession when the Olympics ends - its been propping up the UK’s GDP, not unlike the Y2K bug, probably why we’re hosting it.

As for housing, the easy option is build more high-rise flats - helps employment too. Imagine if we’d spent the £10bn of Olympic money on building basic high-rise flats across London - I’m not a fan of such spend, but way more useful than the Olympics. Singapore do quite well with HDB housing, though that has its problems too. Unfortunately building 100,000 cheap flats across London would significantly increase supply and possibly decrease prices - eventually sending buyers into negative-equity … and a recession. Hard to win.

Whatever happens, I believe you’ve got to live within your means. Average London rent is not to be compared with minimum wage though - there are cheaper places to rent than “average”, or further out from London. If rents are unfordable, you vote with your feet and move out, share, or move in with your parents/family/friends. If enough do, demand will go down, then rents will go down, and eventually property prices too. Or be brave, and move abroad.

Related to which, for the most part I believe the average immigrant who comes to the UK by definition has more “get up and go” than the average local. These people have made the massive leap to come to this country to find a better life and are mostly determined to make it work. Some don’t find that life and move back, though if people do well and find a life here it takes even more guts to give it up and go back to where they came from.

I met a nice Polish biker girl around Christmas, only recently in the UK. She’s saving for a decent/new Honda, having left or sold/left hers in Poland. Within a matter of weeks - in this “economy” - she’d got 3 jobs on the go at once, working all hours. Last I heard she’d saved half towards her new bike. Wow.

Yes, 100% employment is impossible in a working economy. There needs to be people moving and changing jobs, companies growing, others failing as they’re replaced by better ones. Competition and creative destruction. Or, we can maybe have 100% in an artificial economy where too many people make inefficient cars from a 30 year old design that nobody wants.

Edited to add: After all that, there is no excuse for these petty-thieving rioter yobs to think they can just take from society. Society has given them education, safety, even housing, warmth, food, free TV, and dole money. They have life easy compared to many in the world. Their only excuse was boredom, peer-pressure and lazy greed - not need.

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PS - I love that animation RoadRunner. Holly Willoughby … what a gal :slight_smile: