Taking Advantage - Issues in Our Society - Part of Problem behind Rioting?

Off-topic
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Let me give you a couple of quick examples of what I mean by “taking advantage”.

Taking advantage of the desire of young individuals to gain work. Offering up to multi-million pound multinational companies young people to work for Job Seekers Allowance, a pittance by anyone’s standards. Whether you agree with the scheme or not, I hope you can see how this is taking advantage of high unemployment and a real desire by young people to work.

Taking advantage of Olympic Games volunteers by offering menial labour tasks in a Warehouse that isn’t even on the Olympic Site and which should be done for a living wage by some of the vast numbers of unemployed people in the local area, simply to save money for a private company that can afford to pay their CEO half a million a year.

Then we wonder why young people react in the way they do when presented with an “opportunity” to steal with very low risk, as that presented by the riots last summer. Are we creating a society that applauds taking advantage?

Used to be a time when someone feel over people went to their aid, now they see an opportunity to steal from them.

And we wonder where they get it from? Really?

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It is tough out there, and i do agree that young people should be given more opportunity, and not used as cheap labour for work experience “for the pleasure” of putting that companies name on their cv.

However, lack of opportunity does not condone violence, rioting or general mis behaviour, just because a company did not respond to a cv sent in.

ITs about time people started speaking firm but fair, instead of making excuses for the reasons why a teenager goes out to riot- There is no excuse.

IT still boils down the same thing - There are people out there who want to work, and those who do not.

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I didn’t say it condoned it, what I said was that it was part of a problem when the view of society is that it is ok to take advantage.

When you have Government itself, and Government sponsored private business, both willing to take advantage of people, is this sending a message to people that it is ok to take advantage.

How you take advantage will obviously be dependent upon your circumstances and the opportunities that are offered to you to take advantage. The problem lies in the underlying situation where taking advantage is seen as acceptable.

I also think that your last sentence needs revising and lengthening slightly.

“There are people out there who will work regardless of the situation that places them in, and there are those that won’t.”

This highlights the problem facing the working poor and the problem being that some people have an inbuilt work ethic and will work regardless of the fact that it offers little to no benefit to them and that others who lack that work ethic do not want to work for no real gain.

I think there is a fundamental difference between opinions here, one is that we should instil the work ethic in everyone and therefore have a workforce that is willing to work, and two that we should make working more appealing and thus even those without a work ethic will see the benefit of it.

I know which side my opinion falls on.

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Here is a good story that illustrates what I am talking about (to Stevewright) and has been a pet peeve of mine for about a decade to boot…

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17539597

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so what that story highlights is that its the middle class that suffers - not the working class.

the working class will get housing benefit to top up the rent, so they can afford to live in these places (and certainly do not need to earn 60 grand a yr) where as the middle classes who work hard, good salary (such as £38k) get crippled because they do not get free hand outs from the government…

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As for corporate companies taking advantage, well wouldn’t you, i mean when you call someone into your house to do some work for you, i don’t know lets say a plummer, you don’t pay him as much as you think the jobs worth, you ring around and get the best deal you can, then haggle and try get the price down. What about him, his kids, his bills we don’t seem to care then as its OUR money we are spending.

I know people are struggling but its always a struggle you just cannot give up and need to realise when **** feels bad it could be a lot fucking worse!!!

Want to know the big problem we have, its the fact we all feel we have a worth, we are english we deserve to get £6 ph, then we wonder why all our manufacturing and so many other companies in IT and Telephones systems are moving abroad, well its because they get paid half as much and really love there jobs because having a job there is new and they appreciate it. Big companies pay billions of pounds into our “systems” which help everyone have public transport, have free health care maybe the corporate side of companies do get around paying some tax’s but they might have 100,000 employes all paying tax’s.

The other problem is the dole, we need to reward workers who go though tough periods but there is not a single person on this planet who “has never been able to find work” unless the only place they look was behind the sofa. In parts of india if you don’t contribute to your family, even when your old and maybe struggling physically you can be shut out in the cold, now that is harsh!!!

Don’t ever come on here and justify the rioters, there animals, they deserve nothing and its the governments fault for not giving our police more powers and having far to many people sitting behind desks making decisions.

In summary i think we all need to be a little tougher, stop making excuses for piss poor performance and realise you only got as much right to work as you neighbour, and these days our neighbours are everyone on this planet and if we cannot figure out ways to work and makes things financially viable for ourselves then naturally its going to go to a country that can this. The world has got a lot smaller over the last 20 years, and that is our biggest problem.

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and in response to rixxy above, i think they (english police) should borrow the PSNI water cannons from Northern Ireland, and let rioters be treated for what they are - Rioters

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AGREED

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Here you are being very vague. What is the level of working class that receives the benefit? Where is the cut off point.

Since this is your argument, find it and come tell us. Let us decide whether you are right or wrong based on some real facts, rather than just a vague nod towards an idea that some people get benefit.

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As far as im aware you have not been made judge yet, and as this is not a court room i dont feel the need to “come up with real facts”

Who said your own “facts” from BBC news were correct?

I hardly think its a good basis for your own “facts”

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At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and because some people may disagree with you, does not mean they have to proove why they disagree with you

as i said, this is not a court room…

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It is rather amusing however, using Londonbikers as a testing ground for your own stamina at standing ground, i guess for your job you need to stand your ground, even if you do not believe what you are saying yourself

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I know this is boring Rixxy, but there is a thing in Law which courts consider…it is called “bargaining power”. The courts will read massive tracts into contracts if they feel that the bargaining power of one party was massively above another.

You can haggle with a plumber and he can leave to do a different job, you are basically equal in your position here, you need the work done, he needs the employment. You have some equality.

Other examples do not always offer that equality.

I also disagree with your argument about “worth”. I think you completely ignore “cost” in this argument. It isn’t that I think I am “worth” £6ph, it is that I REQUIRE a minimum of £6ph to survive, and even then, I will barely be surviving, I will barely be making ends meet.

You also suggest that these jobs are going abroad because these people “love their jobs”…utter tosh mate. They are going abroad because the cost of living in those countries is TINY compared to the UK, and thus wages are tiny to match that.

If you can buy your household food for £5, pay your rent for the week for a £10 pay your transport costs for another £5, you aren’t going to be unhappy earning £80 a week.

When your household food costs you £55, your rent for the week is £250 (Average London rent is £1,000 a month), and travel costs you £40 a week. £80 a week just isn’t going to cut it is it? You now require a MINIMUM wage, just to eat, have a place to live and go to work, of £345. (assuming you are renting a place that doesn’t come with bills, like electric, gas, phone bill).

£7.19 for a 48 week.

JUST to live and work. Do nothing else, no social life, no clothes buying, no buying of products or any other sort of consumerism, no holidays, no family, no dental costs, no prescriptions, no opticians. No electric, gas, water or phone.

No bikes.

It is ridiculous to suggest that this is down to a personal choice made by people based on what they think they are worth and to ignore the ridiculous cost of living in London as if this isn’t what drives wages.

I agree with the underlying principle of your argument, I just disagree that it is driven by personal greed.

I too think that the cost of living should be dramatically decreased in an effort to control the spiralling wages and to bring back some manufacturing jobs and assorted other work that is flying abroad, but instead of blaming personal greed, I blame the cost of housing, the cost of transport etc etc etc.

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I am not saying I am judge Stevewright, I am saying if you are going to claim a defence to an argument, then be a little more precise. You might as well just say…bah humbag, let them eat pasties! Though that would make you George Osborne apparently.

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you know Kaos to get by in life regardless of what job anyone does, theres a little thing called “people skills” that will stand you on good ground.

Talking at people with a Patronising tone, and a condescending nature really is not the way to get by in life.

Theres no point starting these topics to fight for human rights of people that are hard done by, if you do not respect other peoples views and their own right to free speech also

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Not sure what I have said that would be patronising. Other than calling Rixxy’s general idea tosh, but that is hardly a harsh comment. Not like I have called him names, just said that his view is tosh and ignores a greater reality. I know Rixxy, pretty sure he can take it.

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too true, the other night on “the tube” foriegn worker on the underground, saying he’s worked all around the world, but england is crazy, as its the only place they pay you to be out of work

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And let’s be honest stevewright, you made comments about working tax credits, that you probably don’t fully understand, don’t know when they do apply, when they don’t, what they leave working families with…yet use the very limited knowledge you have in defence of your opinion.

When questioned you won’t add any further information.

Am I really going to change your mind, regardless of my tone or what I say? Of course not. Your mind isn’t made up on any rational basis, so it is impossible for me to change it. If your opinion was based on information and logic, then I might stand a chance, but it isn’t.

I might as well be trying to persuade a devout Christian that god doesn’t exist. Never going to happen.

All I can do is put the information out there and hope that it seeps into the minds of some and over a long period of time they develop their own ideas to match reality rather than ideology.

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Just to add before i pop out.

I agreed with Rixxy regarding the problem. We just disagreed on why that problem exists.