Taking Advantage - Issues in Our Society - Part of Problem behind Rioting?

Your right about the cost of living, i really do agree and it is a struggle, remember your talking to a guy who left school at 16 and moved to london i didn’t even get a GCSE to my name. But India don’t care, and the reality is neither do multinational companies, thats not me being a nob its the truth. But the only way for anything to change is for US thats me and YOU to get off OUR asses and do something about it, you got educated and i worked 16+ hour days until i got noticed and eventually set up my own thing.

The fact is we have a lot of help out there, grants, free government run workshops, evening classes and much more and half of them sit empty as people would rather sit at home talking about how bad there circumstances are rather than doing something about it.

As for not loving there jobs, let me tell you mate they do, i have seen it with my own eyes. TO have a job in India makes you a king as only a generation ago there where no jobs.

ITs interesting your comment above, as the same could very easily apply to yourself.

I cannot yet get to the bottom of what you are trying to achieve when you post these messages, as your own narrow mindedness means that anyone who gets into a debate with yourself is flamed down by your own designated self importance, and (whether you perceive it yourself or not) your own lack of weighing up the pros and cons in your own debate, opposed to simply searching for evidence to proove someone elses opinion, is in your own eyes, faulted.

My take on this is that the offer of work by someone like Tesco’s is literally aimed at getting people back into work, by giving them an introduction to the workplace (sometimes a re-introduction) in order to instill work ethics. Granted, the pay is low. But it isn’t meant to be long term (probably a week or two week work placement) and the “wages” are a top up of the benefits already being received by the person.

So, the person who goes to work at these places gets extra money on top of their benefits, soething on their CV to show they are willing to work (everybody has to start somewhere), work ethics (such as getting out of bed before lunchtime and arriving on time for work) and some pride in the fact that they are contributing to society rather than just sitting at home complaining that they can’t find a job (there is no such thing by the way, it’s just that people want to be straight into a nice job with fantastic pay) and that the world is against them.

So, the eventual outcome is hopefully that the individual will find themselves off the dole, claiming less benefits, and have a chance at building a CV that will lead them to the career of their choice. The supermarket has gained some extra workers at a reduced cost, thereby saving money for themselves (look at it as payment for helping those who want to help themselves) and the taxpayer may eventually have less people dependant on the benefit system.

I know this is a very simplistic view, and that it is flawed mainly by the fact that there is a large proportion of people in the benefits culture who have no intention of working or bettering themselves, as they prefer to stay on the benefits that are GIVEN to them, in the vain hope that somebody from a rich company will someday knock on their door and offer them the job of their dreams! :satisfied:

Obviously I am not suggesting that this applies to everybody on benefits, as I know there are people who claim them for good reason. But until the governmnet make it less attractive to stay on benefits (again, not everybody!) then we will be stuck in this culture of people stating that they are worse off by working. :satisfied:

Showered and ready to go.

I don’t think it does apply Stevewright, because my opinion is based around facts and figures, you can dispute those facts and I welcome your input of facts, these help form an opinion, if those facts are challenged and fundamentally so, then I will revise my opinion. I would have no choice as it is based on a rational thought process.

This is because my opinions are formed in a rational way, I look at the facts combined with some personal experience and I draw a conclusion. I don’t just refer to things in a vague way as some sort of justification of my opinion, I look at the actual facts and relate them to actual people and situations.

This is why I asked you to look at the working tax credits, because I thought it would help you realise that they don’t really pull people out of poverty, they simply allow them to survive in poverty, and I thought if you found that information on your own, it would be more valuable to you then simply me telling you.

Roadrunner. Some facts for you.

There were no wages, there were no top-ups of benefits. There was travel expenses. So no increase of money to the person taken on the scheme, yet they worked a full working week of about 40 hours. (For which Tesco usually pay between £12-15k)

The scheme was for 8 weeks, not 2, if you completed one week and then didn’t want to complete the other 7 weeks, your benefit would be docked.

The total that Tesco received via this scheme, according to information posted on this website by a person who works for Tesco (Numbers of people on the scheme etc) was 100 full-time employees for an entire year. A saving of about £1.5m. Though I suspect the scheme had some running costs, I would be surprised to find it ran to £1.5m.

“But until the governmnet make it less attractive to stay on benefits (again, not everybody!) then we will be stuck in this culture of people stating that they are worse off by working.”


I agree. Just wish we could make working more attractive, rather than making benefits less attractive.

OK, so there is no top up of their benefits. So, in effect, they are working for their benfits, and gaining the rest of the stuff I mentioned at the same time. The benefits can be looked at as wages in these circumstances.

Lets look at it this way…

Two neighbours live in houses which have the same running costs and have the exact same circumstances. They each recieve identical benefits, which allow them to live a basic lifestyle (surviving I believe you called it) and they are both actively seaking work, since leaving the same job, which they both worked at the same company since leaving the same school with the same qualifications. They are both healthy and have no reason not to work (disabilities etc…).

Neighbour one (lets call him Andy) decides to go and do the work scheme with Tesco’s, and works 8 weeks, at 40 hours a week, and each evening comes home to the same house, has his dinner and goes to sleep ready to go back in to work the following day.

Neighbour two (lets call him Dave) decides not to go on the scheme, and instead decides to sit at home most days, looking for job adverts and generally living his usual lifestyle in the hope that one of the jobs can pay him enough to get off his weekly dole, and get him back onto the work ladder without being worse off through losing his other benefits (this would be through the usual thing where the worker then loses certain benefits because he isnow deemed to be earning enough that he doesn’t need the extra help with his rent etc… This is usually not the case!).

8 weeks down the line and Andy has finished his work placement. He returns home to his house and carries on looking for work. He has made a lot of new friends/acquaintances and has added a number of new skills to his CV (it’s not all shelf stacking!), including his Health and Safety at work First Aid course, an NVQ in customer support and possibly a few others (remember, it’s not all about the shelf stacking!) and is generally more upbeat about life and looking forward to getting back into a work environment.

Next door, Dave is still looking for work (same as Andy) and has spent the last 8 weeks attending his job centre and going to job inteviews, to no avail. He is still jobless and still claiming his benefits (same as Andy).

So, at the conclusion of the eight weeks, they are both still living in the same houses, claiming the same benefits and living the same lifestyle. They both go into the job centre and apply for the same job. They both go for the interview… YOU ARE THE INTERVIEWER!

So, firstly, who is more employable?

Secondly, after the eight week period who is generally better off out of the two? More to the point, who has lost out?

Seems to me that the only major gripe that you would have here is surely against the supermarket who you seem to think are exploiting the individuals? What if there was the chance that some of these people were offered jobs on the back of the work experience?

Speaking of work experience, do you think this is the first time this has been tried? I remember as a 16 year old, before I got my apprenticeship, I was doing work placements as part of a jobcentre scheme. I was paid the princely sum of £35 a week, and worked in all sorts of places, usually for a few days or so, which included a dairy where I had to stand in front of a production line and check to see if any of the bottles were broken or cracked before they went into the next area to be filed with milk. Literally the most boring job I could imagine doing, but it gave me a good work ethic. I felt like I had earned the money that popped through my door on the job centres cheque every fortnight! :wink:

Sorry peeps, but I don’t for a second think that the behaviour of the youth of today is a by product of exploitation, bullshit, there are hundreds of college schemes out there for kids who come from a poorer background that our Etonian brethren where you perform and the government pay percentages of the tuition fees until you complete with a good score and they settle the costs entirely. So, tell me,how can any of today’s youth be justified in the way they behave, with generally intimidating attitude and body language, the careless approach to working, and complete dumbFuckery the display at any given opportunity. Bottom line is, they all believe they are owed something by society, and that’s that, there are a select few who actually are decent and want to do well, but unfortunately this is only a few. If you want nice things, a big house and people to actually speak to you like a human being, act like one and do what everyone else has had to do, go to school, get a job, start at the bottom, put up with the **** and work your way up,…suddenly, hazaar, you have something you worked for and can truly cal your own, rather than being on the dole while you go out robbing people for their ****. Political rant over, 10-4 sarge, peace and love,…and before you send abuse, I am fully aware I am a bastard, your views will not change mine. Toddles.xxx

In a nutshell… Well said that man! :D:P

I see the same arguments…justifying, condoning.

This is neither.

I don’t condone or justify cancer, it doesn’t mean that I might not explore the reasons behind it. The two are quite separate. It would help if you can make that distinction.

Roadrunner,

I don’t doubt what you have said, I would only ask this. Is Tesco so poor that it can’t afford to pay something?

100 employees full-time for a year with no wage bill? That is somehow acceptable to our society now?

Stewart,

People are owed by society.

I know you might not like that answer, but it is the truth. Do some philosophy and you will very quickly come across the “Social Contract” Rousseau if you want to look it up. It is the contract that effectively are signed into at birth that binds us to our society, that we must obey the rules of society, etc etc.

I ask you this to force you to think about whether society owes you anything.

Can you live outside of society?

I will answer for you. No, not legally. You must have a fishing licence to fish, which requires money, which is a construct of society. You can’t build a shelter for yourself without planning permission, not to mention you won’t find any land that isn’t owned by someone else.

Society has effectively made it impossible for you to survive on your own.

Why shouldn’t it owe you something for that?

nice one kaos, in general and on

<<Society has effectively made it impossible for you to survive on your own.

Why shouldn’t it owe you something for that? >>

in particular.

Honestly I think that it’s impossible to get a clear picture of the make-up of this country. How can you judge how things should be if youu don’t know how things are?

One hardly knows the demographic of one’s own street, how can you possibly think you can imagine what most people’s lives in brittain are like?

How many people on benefits truly need them? How do you determine that?

How do you know how many rich people there are? How do you know how many people messing around not working hard to better their lives there are?

we don’t even know how many people there are in this country!

it’s very easy for kaos or anybody else (cant remember names) to see things from their own perspective.

I, I, I, I.

unfortunately the truth is that there are no absolute truths/values.

everything is convention. realities are set, “agreed”. that’s why you got the death penalty in some places and not in others. for example.

but I believe the current situation is not a true reflection of the people’s will.

democracy has been raped. it started off greek ecclesia style, ~6,000 citizens, people power.

the fact is that (almost) everybody has an opinion, but how much people care about their opinions varies.

some people will back them up with their lives.

What I am getting at is that opinions don’t all have the same value in practice.

some people are allowed to decide.

but the reality should be set democratically. but democracy is not being used to measure everyone’s opinion and reflect the true reality.

there are people in this world who care about how things are, and they should do something about it.

now to address the issue of blame.

I am not putting the blame on anyone, not saying that benefits should be less attractive or that working should be more attractive, I’m just pointing out alot of people seem to be not too happy about the state of affairs,

what good is moaning?

1 - VOTE

2 - BOYCOTT

3 - i can’t finish this right now i’ll finish it later.

what about the upcoming hose pipe ban?

Sorry I missed this earlier.

We don’t even have to look to manufacturing any more, look at any service that requires a person to complete it, the police, the NHS, social care, even the legal profession. And what you see are cuts. Massive cuts across the board. Cuts to interpretors, cuts for legal aid, cuts to the number of police officers, it is happening everywhere. Oh and lorry drivers delivering petrol too.

For one reason, we can’t afford to pay people a decent wage as the costs are too high. To meet the requirements of individuals requires a wage that cuts so deep into profits, or the public purse, that it becomes a problem. This is not because people are greedy it is because the cost of living is so high.

It doesn’t matter how educated you get, how hard you work, there are not enough jobs in the country for everyone. You have to accept that at least some of the people will be unable to get a job.

If we all had degrees, there would be 2m people unemployed with a degree. That is just a fact.

If this Government could outsource nurses, doctors, police officers, the army, or social care workers…they would.

The problem is it doesn’t fix any thing.

Fixing the cost of living would mean that we could afford to pay for those people to do that job and we wouldn’t have to face cuts to every public service.

Instead, we will watch as they are all privatised, no money saved, but employees given less, which will just create even more unhappy people in our country.

:laugh:

A very good point well made.

its not a hose pipe, its a water cannon :smiley:

These are my views on some of the topics discussed:

Benefits-

Those who are ill or disabled and have it confirmed by doctors (this currently happens) - fine, they should have enough benefits to pay rent, and have a decent standard of living

Those who are on benefits simply because of circumstance such as loosing their jobs should be supported, but not for nothing - they should do charity work to earn the benefits (nothing should be for nothing) and it will also give them essential people skills and motivation for when they are in jobs

Those who are on benefits simply because they are lazy and do not want to work - If they do not attend the charity work after a few tries, then their rent is paid, but they do not get benefits in money - they get food and clothes vouchers - keeps them living, but prevents them from luxuries.

pay -

There should be an increase in the minimum wage, and it should be against the law to take people on without paying them the minimum wage (including work experience)

I also think companies should be force to take on people for work experience, maybe a quota based on the number of employees ie, lets say a company employing 10 people, should take 1 person for at least 1 week work experience a year.

Also for the record- I do not believe there should be “incentives” to work - you work so that you can pay bills and eat, if your fortunate, the harder you work, opportunities will arise and you can increase your standard of living

Also, ITs not peoples right to live in multi million pound houses in Chealsea, Kensington etc and have it paid for in housing benefit

Or not a fact, as it hasn’t happened, so it cannot be a fact, like much of the drivel in these tabloid threads

It is a fact that there is a proportion of unemployed people in every capitalist system. Regardless of the level of qualification of those within the system.

That is a fact. There is no, never has been, and never will be, 100% employment in a Capitalist system.

Let’s be even fairer and discount 100% unemployment as unattainable for various reasons, transient employees, lay off, sackings etc, you cannot even achieve what is termed as “full employment” which is the idea that anyone who wants a job can get one.

I refer you to the economists view that if you had “full employment” you would have rampant and runaway inflation that would devastate the economic landscape. It just isn’t possible to have full employment within the capitalist system.

Do a little research on it if you find it interesting.

If we all had degrees, there would be 2m people unemployed with a degree.

Hypothesis

Fact