Get back to us when you have had a read round research principles, economics, business and politics 
Some statistics for you.
There are about 36m people of working age in the UK, roughly, the “natural” level of unemployment within any capitalist system, is hotly debated, but is generally seen to be about 4%-6%.
4% of 36m is about 1.5m and 6% of 36m is 2m.
Therefore there will always be between 1.5m and 2m people unemployed, regardless of their personal circumstances. If they all had degrees, they would still be unemployed…with a degree.
Now that total discounts people aged between 15-18, because it is too difficult to work out the number in education, for these purposes, and it discounts those over 65 who may still well be either in employment or looking for work.
Both of these work against the figure I presented, and these are just meant as a guideline to show you how that figure is arrived at and why I would consider it a fact, rather than a random number generated from nowhere.
yes I forgot where i was.
God forbid we actually look for information instead of spouting ideology.
Kaos, points well made, people will only start to change their opinion once their conditions change and they expereince the cold reality of what lies ahead of us.
I don’t approve/condone of rioting either, the people who suffered were every day people who work and do the right thing, people like most of us. The people who rioted reflect the values of our society though (these values may not be shared by us here, but they effectively are our society’s values on a miniature scale). What does our government do (this one and the other lot) when there is disagreement/hate/dislike and options of discussion/reason are exhausted (or felt to be exhausted) with our nations, we go to war. Our soldiers shoot/kill other people in other countries, who do not share our values. We are pulling out of Iraq after destroying it, I don’t even know how to rationally write/speak about Afghanistan, illicit bombing of Southern Pakistan, threats of war against Iran, CIA operations in Venezuela. What are people supposed to make of this, apart from that if you are physically able, you should destroy those who don’t share your values/are simply different, take what you can and leave them with the consequences? Politicians say they care, but they clearly don’t, nobody with any empathy can possibly look on at the suffering caused in our name under the veil of democracy.
Secondly, if Tesco ‘employ’ 100 people for free (or rather at our expense, as we are all tax payers and some of our taxes will pay benefits to the unemployed) that effectively means they need 100 less employees who they do pay. Financially the tax payer loses out again, as we pay 100 people to work who receive no pay and we loss tax of 100 people who would work and would contribute financially to the state (which should be all of us and not some … in Whitehall). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15178825 Tesco announcing rise in profit in November 2011. Pretax profit of 1.9 billion an increase of over 12%. Paid for by us?
Nicely answered? :blink::doze:
Ok, so firstly, if you had read what my first reply properly you would have understood that the “PAYMENT” is his benefits and the fact that he has his rent and bills paid, he will still recieve his dole money (so he can buy his food etc…) and he gets a few qualifications and life experiences that the other guy didn’t.
If Tesco’s were to pay him some form of “wage” for his 40 hours of work, would he still recieve his benefits? I doubt it! He would at least lose his dole money due to the fact that he is now earning money by working! At the end of the eight weeks he will have to go and sign on again to start claiming his dole money until he finds a job.
What is the incentive for Tesco’s to take him on as work experience, train him in certain things, like his HSE First Aid, when they have to pay him for the priveledge? Where do you think they would get that money from? I’ll tell you where, the guys stacking the shelves, moving the trolleys/baskets and the general unskilled workers would see a few redundancie to make way for the cheap renewable labour. Effectively your idea of tesco’s paying that person would possibly put others out of work.
The long and short of it is that Tesco’s is “GIVING” a chance to get back into the workplace frame of mind, throwing a few qualifications in and get a good current reference to show to the next job interview, effectively making that person more employable to his next interviewer.
Tesco’s get some “EXTRA” staff (I doubt they would get rid of qualified or experienced members of their team just to get some unpaid workers on an 8 week turnaround. It just doesn’t make good business sense), and might even recognise some of these people as future employees. They gain nothing technically, as whether or not they take these people on or not they are making no extra profit by it. I doubt they will get more custom because a few people are working there for free, and they are still paying the regular staff the same wages.
So, what’s the problem? Who would you employ? The bloke with or without the current on the job training and job references? Who’s worse off? The guy who did the training, or the guy who didn’t bother?
I know who I’d employ. It’s a very strightforward situation Steve. And finally, I really don’t buy into this whole “Sosciety owes me” bullshit. Nothing is for free in this world, unless you’re one of those people who lives by the above creed and will sponge until they die! 
I am sorry but that argument doesn’t really wash Roadrunner.
Are you suggesting that North American slaves weren’t really slaves because they were provided with “benefits”? Such as housing and food and water?
It is ridiculous.
What is the incentive to Tesco?
What about the 100 employees that they had working full time for a whole year?
How about the work that those employees completed? You think they created work just for them?
Sorry but yes I am getting a bit angry because this is rubbish. Gonna leave it there.
Chilled a bit
If you could live outside of society Roadrunner, then the claim that it doesn’t owe you anything would be valid. At the very least it owes you shelter, including clothing, and food and water. At the very least. This is because it denies you the ability to complete these basic survival tasks outside of society.
Do you know what Garden Leave is? It is where when you are employed in a sensitive position the company you work for doesn’t want you to immediately work somewhere else in the same field. So you go on Garden Leave. The company pays you to sit at home and do nothing.
The company owes you wages in those situations because it is denying you the basic right to go to work and earn money.
I don’t see any difference between these two situations. One is a company denying you the right to go out and earn, so they have to pay you, and the other is society denying you the right to survive on your own, so they owe you the basic needs of survival.
I would go further and say that survival in society is more than simply having food water and shelter, that there are basic needs in society that are also owed.
However, for the sake of persuasion I am willing to forego those and just ask that you consider why society, which denies you the basic requirements of survival, doesn’t even owe you them.
So basically you think it’s wrong to make people on benefits to be made to earn them by doing on the job training?! Would you rather society just keeps throwing money at them in the hope that they suddenly wake up one day and think “I’ll pull all the stops out today and get myself back into work!”… :blink:
Sorry Steve, but you can argue about the ethics behind Tesco’s (or any other company involved here) using these people as unpaid workers, but there is another option for them… How about they use their new skills and on the job training to go and get a job which pays them?! :ermm:
Yes, they may have to start at the bottom and find that they are on less than they were on the benefits, but surely if they are struggling the benefits system tops them up by paying them the extra bit of money they require. Or, and this may be an alien concept to some people, they get a second job as well!?!
Before you start going on about there being no work out there, it’s utter rubbish! The problem lays with the fact that most people who are unemployed think that certain jobs are beneath them, and therefore are happy to sit at home and blame the system and complain that they are overqualified to do the jobs that are available.
Case in point… ME! Little known fact here, but I’ll throw it into the mix anyway. Some years ago, after I left the forces, I found myself in the situation where I was self employed, I hadn’t had any work for about six weeks and I was starting to run low on funds. I’d only done a few contracts since leaving the forces, and money wasn’t exactly flowing in.
So, I had a simple choice. Go and sign on, or go and find some temporary work whilst I waited for the next contract.
I found myself working in a sandwhich shop within two days of making my decision. Me, with my CV which was fit to burst with Engineering, Communications and Close Protection skills. “Would you like butter or margerine with that sir?”. I lasted a full three weeks, made minimum wage, and enjoyed every day until I left to go to London to do surveillance work. Did I complain about the wage, or that I was massively overqualified? Not once, because I still had my pride and a few quid in my pocket at the end of the week. It paid for my fuel money in the car to get to my next job and meant that I was paying what bills I had at the time.
The point is, it did me until I moved on. It was never going to be a career move, but it was better than sitting at home waiting for a cheque from the dole office. It paid more as well!
The benefits system should be a hand up, not a hand out! If people want to claim benefits,they should be willing to do what is required of them to continue claiming. The other choice is simple. Get out there and do anything you can to bring in a wage! Ditch the pride and scrub pans in a restaurant, sweep the roads, ait on tables or whatever it takes so that you become independant again. The only way is up for these people. The alternative is usually ending up in some crappy way of life, stuck in a rut, waiting for the next handout.
I know what this standard of living is Steve, I get to go to these people houses/flats/apartments on a daily basis, usually to sort out there lives for them! :crazy:
Paying people a wage for doing a job is now something we need to defend? Something we need to justify happening? As if somehow all of a sudden, merely the experience of working should be enough?
So I suspect everyone should be happy doing it then? We should all give up our wages and be content that “at least we are working”?
I never said there was no work out there, what I said is that the capitalist system requires a certain amount of unemployment. That there will always be a certain level of unemployment. That is not the same as saying there is no work out there. It is acceptance that some people will always be unemployed, not necessarily the same people.
I have done some hard working experiences, I worked two jobs once working 9-5 in an office and working til 9pm at Iceland every night, plus weekend work, because it was the only way I could afford to pay my bills.
Do I somehow transpose my experiences on to others and think they should do the same? No, instead I look at that experience and think to myself, why should I expect any one else to do the same? Why should we expect people to work two jobs, simply to survive?
I view that experience with disdain and lay the blame at the feet of a society that has let the cost of living run out of control versus wages and at a society that seems content to allow this to continue and get worse.
Perhaps that is the difference between us?
When working barely allows people to survive we should not be looking at people and asking why they are not content to do that, we should be looking at the system and asking why the system is working like that.
I believe that everybody should have a BASIC standard of living. I also believe that EVERYONE should be expected to contribute to society!
My gripe is not about people who suddenly find themselves out of work, or not able to attain the basi standard and need a helping hand. My gripe is against the people in this society who just take, over and over, ad infinitum, in the beleif that society owes them this! Society doesn’t stop a person bettering themselves. Just about anybody can better themselves through education and vocational training. Nobody is being forced to sit at home on benefits! Granted, there will always be unemployed people. But there is no excuse for the vast majority to get out there and do something about it!
The prime minister and his cronies won’t knock on your door and offer you a job. The job centre won’t do it either! I see far too many people in my job (usually victims of crime, not always criminals) who are stuck in a rut. They will continue to be stuck in this rut because they can’t see past the next payout.
They don’t think “You know what, I’m going to go and get a job, probably earning less than I get on benefits, but I’ll carry on and train i my spare time for a better job. I’m on the ladder then!”.
They think “Sod it, why should I go and work a forty hour week and take home less than I do if I sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle”.
Everybody has the means and the chance to be better than they already are. They just need the get up and go to actually drag themselves out of the **** and into life!
As for Gardening Leave, I understand the concept. What you fail to mention is that is is usually at the end of a contract, or is voluntary in some cases. Either way, it’s usually to their benefit, and if it is voluntary they can always leave early to find the other work. If they are contracted, tough! They should have read the small print! 
They think “Sod it, why should I go and work a forty hour week and take home less than I do if I sit at home watching Jeremy Kyle”.
And I say that this is because the system is broken, not because the individual is broken.
And I say it’s because they’re lazy and have no pride in themselves! Looks like we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one!
thats right, not enough jobs out there for the hard working english who want to show up on time and leave when the jobs done, its no wonder there are no foreigners in this country picking up “hard” work all over the place, i mean i was worried when we joined the EU we would be flooded with people showing us how lazy the real english can be, thanks god that never happened!!!
^^^^ :P:D
Yet another argument that holds no water at all when examined.
Go to Eastern Europe, its very cheap only costs like a oner to get there, have a look around, at how cheap everything is, from booze to ciggies to petrol, to the basic necessities, then ask yourself, if you knew you were going to live there, but were going to stay in a foreign country for awhile earning money, far more than you could earn in your own country due to the cost of living in that country, wouldn’t you work yourself 10 times harder for the short term, work 10 times longer, for the short term.
Knowing that you only had to do it for a little while, because then you would return home with the money you had earned and live in a far better situation, because in the 5 years you worked yourself half to death, you earnt the same as many of your friends who worked for 25 years?
So completely fair comparison to people in this country that must work at that level their entire life then? People should work themselves half to death to match someone else, who has no intention of doing that long term?
No clearly not.
I don’t understand your thought process Roadrunner.
I don’t know how you can’t bring yourself to condemn a system that wants someone to work for 40 hours a week, for basically nothing, to create a profit for someone else, so that they can live a nice lifestyle.
I say, not only is the system broken, but you are broken.
Average wage in Poland £727 a month.
Average wage in the UK £2,239 a month
Three times higher. Yet you are surprised when people are willing to come here and work themselves to death in the short term.
I was wrong though, they can earn the same in 5 years as their friends at home will earn in 15 years, not 25, which was a guess I admit.
I don’t understand your thought process Roadrunner.
I don’t know how you can’t bring yourself to condemn a system that wants someone to work for 40 hours a week, for basically nothing, to create a profit for someone else, so that they can live a nice lifestyle.
I say, not only is the system broken, but you are broken. That's not what I'm saying though Steve. They're not working for nothing! They are working and GAINING qualifications, whilst still receiving the benefits! The end goal is to get off benefits and onto a better lifestyle where they are given decent wages for an honest days work! It may be that they reach the end goal after having two or more other jobs or roles which don't pay the best wages, but there is an end goal all the same! It is practically unheard of that somebody just lands a dream job straight out of school/college/job centre. As for the profit being made by the companies... What profit do they make? They would perhaps make a profit if they were to say "We've got 5 guys coming in for 8 weeks on the back to work scheme, so tell 5 guys that they aren't required for the next two months". But they aren't, are they Steve? Havingan extra amount of staff alone does not promote profit! Not unless they are used to replace the existing paid workforce, which isn't happening! You obviously aren't reading what I'm writing or these points would be obvious to you. I would have thought you would have understood the whole thing about trying to better yourself through education and on the job training, especially with the fact that you've spent all the time I've known you trying to become a solicitor/barraster or whatever your end goal is. I'm pretty sure at some point or another you'll be starting the actual work, at which point you may have to get some formof experience by working for a law firm on minimal wages, or even for free in your own time. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure this is the same thing! It's about working hard to get where you want to be! When it comes to you applying to law firms, are they likely to say "Come on in mate, we'll start you on full wages from the off because you've finished your exams", or are they more likely going to ask what experience you have in real courtrooms, and if you'd be willing to work with them for free or minimum wage until you've got the experience? You tell me. After all this is something I'm sure you've looked into.but according to you the cost of living here even in the most basic manner is the reason for the need for higher wages, and maybe I’m crazy but commuting from eastern europe daily seems unlikely, so what are there people eating? Where are they staying and what are they drinking. Oh let me guess, its 50 to a house they eat potatoes and drink rain water.
Kaos, those people came here because we had it so sweet, we had it in there eyes easy, yeah sure they earn more but the cost of living is higher according to your very own argument earlier on, so why would they come here???
See if they can come here, and not only survive But SAVE money then why are we doing it so wrong??
The fact is they came here, worked hard in crappy jobs often struggling, saved money bought business and houses and now even have family here and a large number have no intention of going home… they made us look stupid, and i hate to say it as there are some industry’s that have suffered with the cheap labour but it could never have happened if the jobs weren’t there in the first place!!!
If they can see the benefit of working hard on lower wages and still go on to carve a name and a future for themselves then why can we not sit back and just admit we have a big problem with the Jeremy kyle generation!!!
They don’t pay the same cost of living Rixxy.
You totally missing the point. They are NOT living in this country as we are living in this country, they are not contemplating raising children here, they are not thinking about buying clothes, they can do that at home, they are staying in this country for the short term, spending as little as possible while here, so that they can take as much as possible home.
I don’t know if you are being obtuse to this and just messing about, or whether you truly think that there is an equality between workers here? As if the cost of living is some sort of universal thing that applies equally to everyone.
If you being serious I ask you to think about this, go to the Caribbean, go stay at a swanky beach front complex, and look at the price of everything there. Everything.
Now look at the average wage on the islands that you stayed on…how could those people possibly afford that? They can’t, because the “cost of living” is different for you because you merely staying in a place, the cost of living for those that actually live there is very different.
It is there same in this situation, just in reverse.
I am not accepting benefits as wages Roadrunner, I gave you the simple rebuttal to that earlier, and you completely ignored it, I thought that was because you realised how insane it was to argue that point.
I understand the point of experience Roadrunner, as a pupil you earn a minimum of £7,500 every 6 months for the first year, that is £15,000 a year, the same as the person working at Tesco btw.
How much do you think I can earn AFTER that pupillage? Do you think the person working at Tesco can earn anywhere near that amount with their great “experience”?
No, you should only be working for literally nothing when it is towards a goal that matters, when you are just doing menial labour you should simply be paid for it.