Progressing beyond a CBT

I spotted the DVSA Motorcycle Strategy Group and thought it looks like a sensible way forward as they are engaging with MAG.

My own view is that there should be no commercial activity allowed on a CBT ticket. So pizza boy will need to get an A1. And I’d allow a 1 times CBT before taking a test of any cat (which gives you 2 years to get up to speed to pass a test), on failure it resets the clock.

And yes, for ref I do have a full licence!


I feel the same
I dont think someone sjhould be allowed to ride around on L plates for an unliminted time
& should be allowed to carry out a trade unless fully licenced

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But what about a sensible person who simply want to get a job? They would be left waiting for months sometimes to get their MOD1 and MOD2 tests. Maybe an extension to a CBT for commercial deliveries.

If you really want to improve safety on the roads, then everyone who wishes to take driving lessons, should have to spend at least 60 hours on a moped or motorcycle in both urban and rural traffic.

For those of you that ride in France, have you noticed how much better the average car driver is over there compared to here? After my first ride over there, I came back with the impression that the French are constantly on the look out for bikers, in order to give way to them. Most households over there have, or have had, a moped in them at one point, as they can (or certainly used to be able to) ride a moped from the age of 13/14. Therefore, most people have either ridden a moped themselves, or have a close family member that rides/rode or moped.

Also the drivers over there have far great lane discipline

Now matter how good a driver you are, if you add a motorcycle to your skill set, then your driving will improve.


Impractical… You can’t force someone to ride a moped because you choose to ride one. That would be like saying we all have to ride bicycles, drive HGVs and other vehicles to understand what they face on the road. Sure, it’s a skillset but not everyone has the ability, the desire, or the money to do this.

I always love it when people talk about driving in other countries how they drive better… Yet you look at the mortality rates and they are higher.

Source: Moped and motorcycle fatality rates

Edit: didn’t spot this was from 2005. This wiki page has data from WHO on overall deaths

I’ve driven in Greece (amongst other countries) and yes, you look out for scooters and bikes, and yes everyone has one or has had one at some point. but we’re not better motorbike riders, or better with them. We look out for them because you know scooters and bikes drive like lunatics. It’s not to give way, it’s self preservation.

PS. Yes I’m aware that part of the reason for higher fatalities will be fact that there are probably more scooters in FR than UK, and that the infrastructure system (road network) might be worse the more south you go. I just always exercise caution when people say that ‘in other countries people drive better’. People abroad say that about the UK :wink:

Personally I view this the same as any other qualification. Would you be happy with a taxi driver being on L plates to take you to the train station?


@Serrisan Flipping heck dude, I’ve not seen that chart before. I’m really shocked that the France figure is so high and the the GB is so low. Every day is a school day, but that is not what I was expecting. I wonder what the latest chart is like and what the chart was when it was first created. Thank you for that information.

I still think that the average driver in France is far better than the average driver over here.

There are too many variables to include to be categorical about who has lowest accidents. Because I’ve seen data cuts by 1000ks of miles driven etc…

It’s more of a flag to be mindful of generalising around personal behaviours. For example, riding around parts of a particular country (urban vs rural), or parts of a road network.

Also factors like single bike only accident, car vs bike, bike vs bike, plane fell on a bike.

Statistics are like a bikini. Can be made to look very attractive, whilst covering up the bits that really matter.

Sort of true. Stats are stats… people choose to ignore / misuse.

Without stats and facts all you have is opinions

France has had a massive speed awareness campaign since then. Before the campaign it was common for everyone to drive as fast as their vehicle was capable, everywhere. I’ve seen Renault 4 vans doing impossible speeds on autoroutes.

Recently there has been a sea change in the country: National Speed Limit applies roads are now 80 kph and it’s astonishing how well observed this is.

Not long ago leisurely lunches and few glasses of vin rouge were totally normal. This has changed suddenly too. Look around lunchtime bistros and most are drinking mineral water.

I’d be curious to see more recent figures.

I tend to agree, and I take you point about taxi drivers on L plates too. Commercial activity should require higher qualifications.

I live in Zone 2 and I’m surrounded by blocks of flats, I’m near the local high street with dozens of fast food joints and there are two large ‘holding pens’ for Papa Johns, Pizza Express, and Deliveroo riders on our street. We see our fair share of L plate riders.

CBT or not, there needs to be more enforcement. I know these guys are hard-pressed, on zero hours contracts and only get paid per drop but OMG I’ve seen it all: speeding; wrong way down one-ways; shortcuts across the footways; ignoring every type of traffic sign; etc etc. All of this is already against the rules whether they have a CBT or not, licence or not.

One blessing recently is Papa Johns, and Pizza Express have swapped to EV scooters. That has eliminated all the loud farty exhaust cans they had been using and it has made a massive positive improvement in the neighbourhood.

I’d love to know the reasoning behind this move. Was it purely commercial? Lower running costs and maybe a government grant? Or has it been taken at a higher level where the board think it projects a better image for their company? If the latter, they should consider rider-behaviour also reflects on their brand.

Bit off topic but I have also noticed that in France they have a lot better lane discipline on dual carriageways and motorways. Only change lane to overtake then pull back in. (This may be due to lower traffic volumes)

Most taxi drivers have spent a year or so on a scooter doing their knowledge, and they are not exactly known to be good to bikers.
A small amount of knowledge is often worse than none at all, spending time on a bike (when you don’t want to) may just remove any patience they have.

On a similar line, should you have to drive a car for a bit before you get a bike licence? Close passing and fast filtering can be very surprising and off-putting to car drivers, and i doubt the bikes doing it know this.

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Actually Boris, that is a good reminder. I was a DR in the Big Smoke from about '82 - '88, and I did notice a quite a few times, that taxi drivers not giving way to PTWs and sometime even going out of their way to close the gaps that where available to us riders, when there was no advantage to them. It’s not as if we were competing for the same business, they took people, we took parcels, so they should certainly have know better.

Driving a car before getting a bike? I’ve not thought about it that way. I think there are far more beneficial skill to be taken from a PTW to a car than vice versa. Most car drivers tend to look for other cars, but not specifically for bikes. I think only us riders do that. But there is a guy on here (please remind me who you are) that said when he’s out in his car with his young daughters, as they were learning to count, he’d get them to count motorcycles during some of journeys with them in the car. It had the added benefit of them already getting used to spotting motorcycles in traffic. Very smart guy, whoever you are. I’ve echoed that to a lot of people.

I’ve given up trying to understand cabbies. They seem to hate everyone. I’ve experienced this same peevish behaviour too. And I’ve often wondered why spending months on a moped doing The Knowledge doesn’t make them more sympathetic to PTWs. I’ve concluded they just hate everyone; they are equal opportunities haters.

I think they have simply overdosed on driving. Subjected to inner city traffic for I suppose 50 hours a week, and with the regression of driving standards on our roads, I reckon most of them are cheesed off and do not know how to react to common mistakes and bad driving.

How we react to situations can dramatically the effect it has on us, both short and long-term, explained here: (1) Watch | Facebook

Why was I not taught this stuff at school?

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Most professional drivers are not curious ones, like the aforementioned pizza delivery riders, taxis and van drivers.
I dont actually think there would be any improvement in the standard of driving if they had to do a test, same as it hasn’t made other delivery drivers-riders any less precarious.

Taxi drivers are required to take and pass an additional driving test over and above the holding of a full UK driving license, the test requirements vary depending on which Licensing Authority issues the Taxi Drivers Licence. That still doesn’t raise their standard of driving which mostly falls some way below average.

The issue is the piece rate nature of their work.

Its the same with pizza delivery riders except they’re less experienced on the roads. Most are self employed, ride their own poorly maintained scooters and are paid per delivery, the faster they clear one delivery the sooner they’re available for the next and the higher their earnings potential is. If pizza delivery riders were employed by the business, on a flat rate of pay and provided with well maintained company scooters and riding kit I’m 100% certain the roads would be a safer place for them and other road users around them.

The cooks aren’t paid per pizza…


Many are, and they are not much better.
Most of the large chains employ riders, and provide the gear, bike and petrol. When i worked for papa johns it was like this, and the friends i know who work(ed) at dominoes did this.

The gear was cheap, and the bike badly maintained as the shop owner wasn’t directly benefitted from spending lots on it. I assume this is different in other shops, but dominoes are currently replacing their scooters with new electric ones, so should be a bit better for now at least.

This didnt change how the bikes were ridden though. There was no link between how fast we rode and what we were paid, but i still saw people riding badly to make time.

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You forget one thing here! They are like rental cars, they will rag them as they are not their own bikes…