I understand…which is precisely why I said “It appears to me that there IS an agenda…and at this point it is no secret. Russia wants is former Soviet satellites back and is willing to use force to get them.”
Western Europe imports up to 40% of their oil from Russia…I think Russia is gambling that they can take what they want from their neighbors, even if it means conquering a sovereign State in the process, and the Western Europeans will sit idly by and allow it to happen as they don’t want their oil shut off…the fact that Western Europeans have a history of appeasing aggressors probably emboldens the Russians too.
They are not trying to overthrow georgia or any other nation.
and why would they? theyhavegot all the resources for themselves. If they go back to USSR they have to support the economies of 14 other countries. Russia doesn’t need another COLD WAR, all they want is stability and high consumption so they can sell more oil. Russia is finally getting on its feet and is becoming a true capitalist country - isn’t that what the West always wanted? They do play a smart game with post Soviet countries raising gas and oil prices to a market value. The time when they supported screw up regimes like Belarus and Georgia with 1/2 off oil and gas prices is over because they complained. Russia is trying to defend it’s national interest far less aggressive than others - USA for example.
If you care to talk about history in 1968 it was not Russia, it was USSR, please mind the difference…
At that point it was Nikolai Viktorovich Podgorny who was the leader… One little thing though he was actually born in Ukraine… which makes him Ukrainian…
If you care to talk about history in 1968 it was not Russia, it was USSR, please mind the difference…
At that point it was Nikolai Viktorovich Podgorny who was the leader… One little thing though he was actually born in Ukraine… which makes him Ukrainian…
Please mind the difference between USSR and Russia.
If you want to go down the history then in 1968 USSR’s leader was Nikolai Podgorny, who was in fact Ukrainian… so if I follow your logic why are you not blaming them?..
Like I said before in this thread: No one can blame Russians and/or in fact any other nationality for crimes committed by USSR. During USSR we were all Soviets, so there is no point in pointing a finger at one country now. Unfortunately in this situation we will never know who exactly committed those crimes (esp. nationality wise), so no one will ever know the truth. Most of the nations in Easter Europe were mixed up and very few of us come form a background with only one nationality, so go figure who it was….
In my opinion people need to stop pointing a fingers and sort out what is happening now.
I am worried about the Americans ‘peacekeeping’ on Russian border and I do not want to even think about what can happen… poor South Osetians are just starting to bury their dead… any more ‘peacekeeping’ in the region will wipe out the whole nation and put severe strains on world economy as well as cause a World War 3…. and I so don’t fancy that….
Man, I just love arguments that draw in other piddling crap because the writer can’t think of anything better to say or has an axe to grind. Who gives a damn about gitmo and WTF has it got to do with this? “Oh, I don’t like what you’re saying and disagree with it because of an entirely unrelated situation that I think I know something about.”
Similarly, having perceived NATO bases nearby is unnaccaptable but the Russians are no stranger to that tactic themselves. We’ll conveniently ignore that one eh?
This thread is a perfect example of the internet in action. Someone pops online not to find information but to entrench and hopefully spread their point of view. But if your mind won’t be changed, why do you think you can force your opinions on others? Never mind oil, that’s what wars are fought and people die for.
I’m willing to accept that this is an ethnic conflict and the Georgians aren’t innocent. But that doesn’t make Russia everything you think it is. I didn’t say Russia wants Georgia back. I’m sure Russia is happy with nibbling away at important little bits of land that give it influence (strategic or resource) in the near abroad.
And yes, the US went into Iraq without UN support. That must really p!ss a lot of people off. Haha!
I know this might come as a strange idea, but let’s try to stay cool, calm and rational can we?
I’m getting better and better information, though whether any of it’s the truth is difficult to know, as this conflict goes on.
And do you know what? Depending on what/who you read, Georgia and Russia are both absolute b@stards.
They’re both victims and aggressors, invaders and defenders,honest and lying, and so on. The only constant so far is both are accused of ethnic cleansing.
I’m well aware that this could be another pivotal point in history, but I’ve done my share of worrying and demonstrating about those, so I’ve given up on trying to understand WTF is going on.
It’s good to see some debate on world issues on a bikers web site, but please, let’s keep it calm and as rational as we can manage. Don’t prove Gruntmon right.
You’re absolutely right Oldguy I totally agree that ALL sides in this conflict (and probably any other conflict in human history) are basically hypocrites. I have sympathy with Kempo because rather than making broad generalisations about the relative merits of Russia/the West/Georgia/Ossettia he is analysing the detail of this particular conflict and drawing his conclusions from this specific detail, rather than basing his argument on a set of already established prejudices. It is true that Russia is hypocritical in it’s condemnation of the Georgian aggression when we look at Russia’s actions in Chechnya. I am sure that Kempo would acknowledge this as he seems a reasonable and rational kind of guy.
Gruntmon was too quick to accuse everyone of having a knee jerk reaction/axe to grind in relation to this topic - if he looks at the thread again he will see that most of the people posting were attempting to look at the specific detail of this conflict rather than falling back on established clichés or prejudices.
By the way, this thing is going to run and run, as this mornings Guardian has reported A Russian general saying that Russia reserves the right to attack Poland with nuclear weapons if the Poles agree to host U.S. anti-missile defence systems on their soil. As usual The Neville Chamberlain quote on appeasement in 1939 is apt and chilling in the circumstances - ‘a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing‘ - has resulted in a massive shift in the global strategic map - I just hope that it does not engender ‘massive’ consequences.
“By the way, this thing is going to run and run, as this mornings Guardian has reported A Russian general saying that Russia reserves the right to attack Poland with nuclear weapons if the Poles agree to host U.S. anti-missile defence systems on their soil. As usual The Neville Chamberlain quote on appeasement in 1939 is apt and chilling in the circumstances - ‘a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing‘ - has resulted in a massive shift in the global strategic map - I just hope that it does not engender ‘massive’ consequences.”
Same report in the Saturday Heliograph and probably every other paper.
Almost makes me yearn for the cold war all over again. At least then we sort of thought we knew what we were dealing with and both side had MAD.
(Great acronym = mutual assured destruction for any that don’t know, but, in truth, bloody insane.)
Forgetting Geogia for the moment, the bit that worries me the most is the Russian leadership. Putin has always been an arrogant little fart, and with his GRU/KGB background, probably always a bully.
Not the best qualifications for the leader of a world power when surrounded by puppets and yes men of his own choosing.
Regarding the authoritarian nature of the Russian regime - I guess that if you look at it historically, Russia has always been governed by autocratic rulers - from the Czars, through to the Communists and right up to the current post - Communist regime. Many Russians also seem to prefer this type of leadership - perhaps because it provides them with a sense of stability and continuity in the vast territory that is Russia.
I agree with Alistair that it is up to the post-soviet states to decide what international bodies they join and whose military installations they decide to host on their soil - on the other hand I think that the U.S. and the west should exercise a bit of realpolitik over issues of principle on this matter - the siting of western military facilities next to Russia is bound to heighten Russian insecurity and provoke a reaction - in the same way that the U.S. would react (and has reacted in the past) to the siting of Russian military facilites in central America and Cuba.
(Just before that kicked off I got a letter from the War Department/MoD reminding me that conscription had not been abolished, just on hold , and they reserved the right…etc… How re assuring.)
On reflection, Poland joining NATO c/w/ould make the Russians a bit miffed but that is small beer to having neuclear weapons parked on your doorstep. At best that is insensitive, but when did America ever show any true understanding of world politics and diplomacy?
But we are not talking about Poland and Georgias nearest link (so far) has been to have US training instructors in the country to help prepare their ground forces for duty in Iraq/Afganistan.
I’m beginning to think this is a personality battle as much as a political problem.
You know…I take alot of this with a grain of salt…but this arrogant Western European attitude REALLY gets under my skin. We in America have seen the results of Western Europeans oh so superior diplomatic skills…appeasing aggressors until they are knocking on your doorstep…and then crying to America for help.
Appeasement is NOT diplomacy…you would all be speaking German…or Russian…if not for the proper application of “diplomacy”…the type that aggressive dictators like Hitler…Stalin…and now, apparently, Putin…understand.
I agree with you, European diplomacy does not have a great tradition but then neither has US tinkering in things.
I don’t know why, but America still appears to have a pathalogical fear of anything faintly socialist and seems to feel the need to interfere by encouraging, financing and arming right wing opposition groups. The results: Pinochet in Chile and the worlds longest civil war in Angola.
As for running to America for help, perhaps, but where were America in 1914 and 1939?
And where were the UK in the Korean war, sorry, “police action”, and Kuwait (Desert Storm) and most recently Afganistan and Iraq? Agreed we dipped out on Vietnam.
All of the above is digression.
Way back when this thread started I stated that I did not know enough to have an opinion on the rights and wrongs of it. I still don’t, but it is getting clearer that to me that Putin needs to be confronted by force rather than rhetoric.
I totally agree that ALL sides in this conflict (and probably any other conflict in human history) are basically hypocrites. I have sympathy with Kempo because rather than making broad generalisations about the relative merits of Russia/the West/Georgia/Ossettia he is analysing the detail of this particular conflict and drawing his conclusions from this specific detail, rather than basing his argument on a set of already established prejudices. It is true that Russia is hypocritical in it’s condemnation of the Georgian aggression when we look at Russia’s actions in Chechnya. I am sure that Kempo would acknowledge this as he seems a reasonable and rational kind of guy.