Georgia, Russia

Off-topic
21

I agree - it is only possible to deal with Russia (or the United States for that matter - which is why Iran wants nukes) - from a position of strength and resolution ‘lines in the sand’ have to be drawn somewhere (which brings us back to balance of power theory).

I just think that if more carrots and less sticks had been used against Russia in the last 10-15 years, Russia might be less antagonistic and more amenable to mediation and compromise.

Realistically, Russia is able to carry out this kind of activity unhindered in it’s ‘back yard’ in the same way that the U.S. has been historically able to intervene in central America and south America - it’s ‘back yard’.

Russian intervention in Eastern Europe at this point in history is not on the cards unless the Russians want war with the western powers - however - the Caucasus is a different matter.

22

Good points <A class=SmlBoldLinks id=_ctl1_ctlTopic_ctlPanelBar_ctlTopicsRepeater__ctl41_smAuthorName onmouseover=“window.status = window.location;return true;” onmouseout=“window.status=’’;return true;” href=“void(’’);”>rb800.

What happens if we don’t stand up to Russia, Lithuania gets invaded so Russia can link up with Kaliningrad and more people die? Russia moves into eastern Ukraine?

I understand your point but what about the rest of us. through out history we have done exactly this. you call russia bullies yet compared to some countries there pussy cats. im not say ing they are angels but people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones

this is a nation that has been pushed to thre point where they are paranoid and scared. i agree with sid about the balance of power.

slowly but surely all these little break away states are gaining or trying to gain independence ( where do you think the finance is coming from) then joining up to Nato/UN where other countries cough cough can have great strategic points. take chechnya for example, nearlly surrounded by russia on all sides, if they became independant and joined with the west then you may aswell say that America would have a base in russia. they will not let that happen No wonder they feel agitated and bullied.

The point is this war that is taking place. the fact is Georgia tried to take over south ossetia with its military. this didnt work because russia joined for whatever reason. now they are calling on the west for military support…come on!

as for them killing someone over here, it probably was them but this has not and never will be confirmed. dont be so naive mate, do you not think this happens all over the world. what about these American clandestine snatch squads that come in to counrties unrecorded to kidnap people off the streets and fly them out to places like africa, ejypt to be interogated.all countried do thing that they feel protects there national securety.

23

I specifically started by saying, let’s leave aside the sins of the UK, US etc. etc. to focus just on Russia for just that glass house reason. We’re no angels but that wasn’t my point here. ditto on overseas assassinations//``all these little break away states’’ Any country if they want to join NATO or any other organisation it’s up to them, sod Russia’s views. I was working for Reuters in Tallinn when the Baltics went through the whole EU/NATO process. These countries were independent before suffering a half century of occupation and appalling crimes at the hands of Russia. They were understandably the twin foreign policy goals and membership was vital to them emerging back into the world after their development was stunted for so long. If they chose to look west and not east and Russia didn’t like it, so what? It’s their choice. Russia tried to put pressure on them to stop NATO membership. Again, sod them.// Georgia take over South Ossettia? It was part of Georgia in the first place. The rights and wrongs of how the Georgians went in to deal with the regions are a seperate issue and do not justify Russian invasion of a foreign soverign state. If Russia feels paranoid and scared, well fine, that’s another issue. It’s not justification for them pushing around, intimidating and invading their `near abroad.’

24

as for russia wanting to invade ukrain…come on dude. russia gave them there independece, subsadised there oil and tried to help but they wanted more. when russian said f**k you then they cried to the west. the president at the moment was funded by the US. In the ukrain you have many diiferent factions who want control and they are having there own little war. too many people want power and money. russia/ ukrain etc are still very corrupt and people want a peice of the pie.

chechnya, most of the chechens do not want an independent state. the country would fall apart without the russian economy. this is the second war their but in has been going on for years. its the sepratists who want this. remember beslam and the school kids…chenyan sepreatists/Terrorists who were trained by the americans…there was even a american in the group…FACT.

25

I think I specifically also said let’s put chechnya aside as it’s still part of russia if I even mentioned it at all. beslam was shocking on every level. as for ukraine/lithuania, I wasn’t saying it’s going to happen or is even imminent. Russia are doing things that are blatently wrong. They’re being allowed to get away with it, be it due to the oil wealth or whatever. No-one’s standing up to them. It scares smaller neighbours. I was in touch with an Estonian friend today, he said he never thought NATO would ever help his country were it in a similar position to Georgia. Now he knows for sure. Like it or not, relevant or not, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is not easily forgotten in the Baltics, nor I suspect Poland or other countries.

26

Posting this not to make a point, but because I thought it may be interesting on this topic. – Statement of President Ilves to the people of Estonia regarding the situation in Georgia

Dear Estonian people.

All of us who value democratic values and the ideals of freedom support Georgia today. A democratic European country has fallen victim to aggression.

The world, but especially the European Union and NATO, cannot just remain a bystander in this situation. The events are taking place too close to us and with a people that wishes to tie its future to Europe and European values.

We must use all the possibilities at our disposal to immediately halt the military activity and to prevent continued casualties on Georgia’s territory.

It is for this reason that the leaders of the Baltic countries, Poland and Ukraine have decided to make a joint visit to Georgia’s capital Tbilisi today. Together we will continue our activities in the UN, the European Union, and other international organization in order to find a fast and permanent solution to the conflict. .

The Russian-Georgian war is a touchstone for the European Union for shaping European security policies in the future. Europe must re-evaluate its entire current security and foreign policy and bring it into conformity with the new reality. We must thoroughly rethink what the significantly changed security environment in the vicinity of Europe means for Estonia.

Estonia, as a European Union and NATO member state, is not directly threatened by foreign aggression. Our people should not be afraid or feel endangered.

Estonia’s primary security guarantee is our international credibility, the fulfillment of the obligations we have accepted, as well as our readiness to participate in the resolution of Europe’s and the world’s problems.

In Estonia we must not rush to make decisions that might reduce the defense capabilities of our country or weaken our domestic security. A great responsibility rests with our parliament and government to find sufficient opportunities to strengthen our statehood.

I wish us all the strength and peace of mind to achieve this.

Toomas Hendrik Ilves

President of the Republic of Estonia

27

You talk about who owned Georgia,how far do you want to go back.

A little history lesson…lol

Everyone has had a pop at them, arabs, greeks, Mongols, Persian empire, ottoman empire, all surrounding states

In 1783, Russian and eastern georgian kingdom of Kartli-kakheti (Georgia)signed the TREATY OF GEORGIEVSK. according to which kartli-kekheti (Georgia) received protection from Russia

In the summer of 1805, Russian troops on the Askerani River near zagham defeated the Persian army and saved tbilisi from conquest

After the russian revolution of 1917 , Georgia declared independence on may 26 1918 in the midst of the Russian cival war. The parliamentary election was won by the Georgian Social-Democratic Party, considered to be pro-Menshaviks and its leader, Noe zhordania, became prime minister. In 1918 a Georgian armenian war erupted over parts of Georgian provinces populated mostly by Armenians which ended due to British intervention. Georgia was under British protection from 1918-1920.

On April 9 1991, shortly before the collapse of the USSR, Georgia declared independence.

In 1995, Shevardnadze was officially elected as a president of Georgia. At the same time, two regions of Georgia, abkazia and south ossetia, quickly became embroiled in disputes with local separatists that led to widespread inter-ethnic violence and wars.

In 2003, Shevardnadze (who won reelection in 2000) was deposed by the rose revolution after Georgian opposition and international monitors asserted that the november 2 parliamentary elections were marred by fraud. ( how convenient) The revolution was led by mikheil saakashvili, zurab, zhvania and nino burjanadze , all former members and leaders of Shavarnadze’s ruling party. Mikheil Saakashvili was elected as President of Georgia in 2004 and was funded by the US.

The new government’s efforts to reassert the Georgian authority in the southwestern autonomous republic of Ajaria lled to a major crisis early in 2004. Success in Ajaria encouraged Saakashvili to intensify his efforts, but without success, in the breakaway south ossetia. These events resulted in a severe deterioration of relations with russia, fueled also by Russia’s open assistance and support to the two secessionists areas. Russian military bases (dating back to Soviet era) in Georgia were evacuated, with the last remaining base in batumi handed over to Georgia in 2007

then geaoria invades south ossetia…

28

just wanted to say…

dont get me wrong, im not pro russian i just make up my own mind , which is open, to what is going on.

why cant our liitle planet just live in peace. havent we learned anything from our history.

and also, im English but sort of have alot of family in both russia and the ukrain.

29

This is all very interesting but not really based on the actual facts from the ground. It’s a pity there seem to be no Georgians or South Ossetians in LB, it would be good to get the information first-hand and discuss this on that basis rather than rely on what we hear in the media, all of which is notoriously unreliable. I regularly read Pravda and it makes me laugh how anti-American it is, I think even now it claims the Kursk was sunk by the Americans!Are there any Georgians or South Ossetians out there that can help inform this debate?

30

yor right mate…who can you beleive. every one has an agenda.

as for south ossetian LB’ers…lol:w00t:, have you seen the roads, who would have a bike their. could imagine a blade dodging the tanks.

31

They should send Ewan and Charlie out there on their GS’s - spread peace and love to the region like only they can.

And we can all laugh at Ewan dropping his bike… again…

32

can you beleive that saakashvili, just watched the live braodcast of his speach at a georian rally.russia has decided to stop its military actions, now this guy tells his people he will never give up and will keep fighting. he told his people that the west is coming and will stand by there side…

what the hell is this guy on.

he keeps changing his mind, tells lies to his people, and continues this pathetic propaganda and calls for western help. yeah, russia dishes out its own propaganda but this guy is always on tv either begging for help or getting brave and being defiant and agressive. it seems like as soon as the west show a little compassion he gets bolshy, think he tstill thinks the west will help out.

think someone need head doctor:D

33

All very interesting reading. Does anyone know the international legal status of what is going on in Georgia? As I understand it from what I’ve seen on TV (I should probably read the papers more) the first move was Georgia carrying out a military operation within their own borders (Ossetia) and depending on who you believe killing maybe thousands of their own Ossetian civilians in the process. Is this considered legal under international law? If it is then it shouldn’t be.

Okay, so Russia then move into Georgia and chase the Georgian military out of Ossetia. Two wrongs don’t make a right but Georgia started it didn’t they? Or am I missing something. I noticed the Georgian Ambassador on Newsnight last night seemed to say Russia had invaded unprovoked. What’s her name interviewing her strangely didn’t challenge her. I’m confused!

34

Who defines “own borders”? It is not straighforward. During the breakup of the Soviet Union South Ossettia declared itself an independent republic before Georgia did.

35

From what I have read (I’m not an expert on the Caucasus and I am happy to be corrected) Saakashvili launched the military operation to draw attention away from his government’s (or as some like to call it 'nepotistic ruling clique’s) economic problems and ingrained corruption.

If that is TRUE then this guy is quite happy to gamble the future of humanity (by calling in NATO) to save his and his cronies skins!

I agree with a lot of the intelligent points made above regarding the right of independent states to join international bodies free from the pressure of outside powers and I agree that it is right and necessary to take up arms on a point of principle (as Britain did on behalf of Poland in 1939) - but the idea that we could end up escalating this conflict and endangering humanity as a whole - all for the sake of a dodgy Georgian politician and his mates is completely insane!

36

Were they internationally recognised as such?

37

you must remember, a large part of the population are russian and hold russian passports. so is that not protection…

after its first idependence referendum in1 992 was not recognized by the international community as valid suoth ossetia held a second referendum on nov 12 2006. the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%

the referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from counties such as germany, poland, sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations.

so all in all south ossetia do not want georgia.

especially after Georgia tried the same thing back in 1989 when they tried to take south ossetia.this was just after South Ossetian regional council asked the Georgian Supreme Soviet for the region to be upgraded to that of “autonomous republic”. The Georgian Supreme Soviet adopted a law barring regional parties in summer 1990. This was interpreted by Ossetians as a move against Ademon Nykhas and led to Ossetians proclaiming South Ossetia a Soviet Democratic Republic. Violent conflict broke out towards the end of 1991 during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned down as were Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. As a result, approximately 1,000 died and about 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper, most across the border into North Ossetia. A further 23,000 ethnic Georgians fled South Ossetia and settled in other parts of Georgia

In 1992, Georgia was forced to accept a ceasefire to avoid a large scale confrontation with Russia. The government of Georgia and South Ossetian separatists reached an agreement to avoid the use of force against one another, and Georgia pledged not to impose sanctions against South Ossetia. However, the Georgian government still retains control over substantial portions of South Ossetia

A peacekeeping force of Ossetians, Russians and Georgians was established.

In June 2004, tensions began to rise as the Georgian authorities strengthened their efforts against smuggling in the region. Hostage takings, shootouts and occasional bombings left dozens dead and wounded. A ceasefire deal was reached on august 13 though it was repeatedly violated. here is when you hear about ethnic cleansing and genocide.

In the first hours of August 8 2008, a mass incursion of Georgian troops and armour to a South Ossetian-controlled territory and repeated shelling of Tskhinvali began, quoting a spokesman of the Georgian Interior Ministry, stated that three Russian aircraft had intruded on Georgian airspace, attacking some targets in the Tskhinvali region. On the same day, twelve Russian peacekeepers were killed and nearly 150 injured

38

I guess we can all agree that it is tedious and upsetting that human beings are still prepared to kill and disspossess each other on the basis of ethnicity - you’d think that we’d have evolved out of this type of behaviour by now. A good case in point is western Europe - as recently as sixty odd years ago Europeans were still prepared to kill each other en masse for strategic/ethnic reasons. The lessons of WW1 and WW11 were so harsh that the citizens of these nations (I’m thinking western Europe) would now consider it unthinkable to got to war with each other - how long will it be before the whole planet absorbs this lesson (if ever?).

39

well there you are though Russia at the end of WW2 while they were backing out of poland decided to tourch everything what a bunch of c****!

40

No - but in 1989 they were declaring independence from Georgia, which wasn’t internationally recognised at the time either as Georgia didn’t declare itself independent until 1990.