come on mate , Stalin was a nasty peice of work and you cant judge russia now by what he done then.
He killed everyone including millions of russians. no discrimination in who he killed. do you know that more people from the USSR died in that war than all the countries put together. FACT!
Ironic fact - Stalin was FROM Georgia! (he was a Georgian). :hehe:
and he was jewish…go figure.
he set up concentration camps like hitler and killed millions of jews
Those damn Georgians eh?
“All these little break away states”. You mean the near abroad? That sums up the Russian Federation point of view right there.
And regarding not liking bases being put in a nearby country… check this little bit of History out. Sucks doesn’t it?
What has the Russian Federation got to be worried about? Is NATO going to invade? What’s so important about this little region with BP oil pipes running through it? Why the desire to exert control over Europe’s energy supplies?
As for the human rights card, come on, I don’t think Russia EVER gets to play that one.
A bit more like Ghengis Kahn than Hitler. But without GK’s good points of wanting univerasl literacy and providing proper health care in all villages.
He was pretty indescriminate about who he “cleansed”. Just anybody, organisation, ethnic, religeous, etc. group that upset him. That included the middle rank officer corp of his own army and the head of his own secret police, who had helped him to power and helped kep him there, once he thought Berrier (?) was getting too powerful.
Anyway. I’ve followed this thread so far. Learned lots of stuff. But I still don’t feel any better informed to have an opinion on the rights and wrongs of the situation.
yea but stalin, cold war, putin all a waste of time
your missing the point mate, Russia is NOT trying to take the Georgian territory, they are protecting their nationals in south ossetia from what some may call genocide. 90% of the people there hold Russian passports and have a history of being discriminated against.
as for the oil, you may be right as all countries right now unfortunatly seem to put this black gold before human rights. but no pipe line runs through south Ossetia so your argument doesnt apply to this situation.
Well all this is nothing compared to when Russia, Canada, Denmark, and of course, the US, kick off over the Arctic oilfields… :w00t:
I just had to register with LB just to reply personally what I think about this topic. I have been watching this discussion very closely, as it hits very close to home.
A bit about me, so that you can see where I am coming from.
I am half Ukrainian, half Russian. Majority of my family are currently living all around Ukraine and a small part of our clan lives in Moscow.
I was born in Moscow, I spent all of my holidays in Ukraine up until I was 12, and since 13 I live abroad.
All of my family is till back in those two countries.
Read on:
I am against all the discrimination and repression of any nationality, religion, race, etc. From my perspective financing directly/indirectly by foreign governments (esp. US) all the separatists (i.e. governments as well as terrorists) that are robustly against Russians living alongside their nation is just steering up the conflict in the regions… Only people that benefit from it are politicians that steer up people against each other, which is obviously not good for civilians and poor soldiers who just don’t have a say.
You said you want to leave all the things out about other countries being unjust and getting involved etc (Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan, should we also remember Vietnam and colonization times?). If you wanted to leave all of those and many more things out, why bring up all of the USSR’s past into this? You should have just stuck to the conflict.
Ukraine and Belarus were receiving heavy subsidies on their gas prices as former soviet states for years, and when they wanted to break of all the contact they were given the price the rest of the world gets. Don’t you think it is cheeky to blame Russian BUSINESS, not government for this?
As for the statue in Tallinn, it was not a Statue to USSR, or Stalin or whatever, It was a statue to the SOLDIERS that protected that region from Hitler and died on that soil. It is like tearing out a gravestone, would you agree with that?
With regards to the Litvinenko case I do not know, but it just seems weird to me why would Russinas need to smuggle a highly lethal substance that costs billions across the borders on the plain instead of just killing the guy with a gun, knife etc? (plus what father would transport it with his kids? ) By the way UK has nuclear stations right on the island, so the substance is available much closer to home…
What has been done to all the former USSR states back them applied to the Russians as well as to the rest of the states. We were all up to our ears in fear and whispered in the bathroom with all the water taps running… The KGB, Stalin etc killed millions regardless of who they were, what were their achievements and what their neighbors said about them. Communism was imposed, people were brainwashed and none of us like it, regardless what is the name of our country now. As far as I see it Communism is not equal to Russia, people who did these things to our nations were not necessarily Russians, they were Soviet. So I would appreciate if you didn’t mix up the two. Who knows what origin were the people who carried out the war crimes and tortured people as KGB, ect? Do you? I don’t, so I don’t go there.
Former USSR States now use similar techniques to communist times in making their population comply with what the current government chose. My mother, who is Ukrainian, chose a Russian passport when USSR collapsed. Now we have Ukrainian customs telling us (Russian passports) that visiting my grand parents (when they were still alive) was not a good enough reason to enter the country (?!?!).
If you want to talk bout discrimination NOW then why don’t you mention that significant percentage of former USSR population TODAY speak Russian at home, which shows what language they prefer regardless of the politics. However Ukrainian, same as Lithuania, Latvian, Estonian etc countries are trying to eliminate Russian speaking population by: forbidding Russian teachers teach Russian kids in Russian; trying to block/forbidding Russian speaking Media in their countries; Russian language has to be taught in schools as a foreign language where parents have to choose if they want their kids to learn English or Russian… You have no clue what it is like going back to Ukraine/Moscow, where you grew up and have people look at you funny you coz you have a bit of an accent.
Do not worry about Russians moving into the rest of the world, they have enough of their own mess to sort out at the moment. And it is not like they are lacking space… :hehe:
ON THE CONFLICT:
On early Friday morning (08.08.08) when the Olympics started Georgians entered South Osetia (SO) and started their military operation, you should hear what the SO’s say and I wish you could speak Russian to hear the horrors they are describing. I am not saying that it was genocide, but it sure sounds that way. The reports of over 2000 civilians killed including Russian and SO peacekeepers. Why wasn’t this on the news??? BBC, Metro, London Paper, Lite… all the media was not interested, I think there was one 1/3 page article at the end of the day in London Paper about Russians reacting
SO Georgians picked a fight and killed people.
Yes, Russians reacted and entered the region by the end of Friday. Yes, they have a massive army. Yes, they are not going to bring only the exact amount of force as Georgian had (would that make sense to you?). Yes, they bombed airports in other cities and military bases, it is a normal strategy employed by all countries at on e time in history to ensure the reinforcements do not arrive and the conflict is resolved swiftly.
SO Russians entered the regions & started kicking some ar*e
Georgians start loosing and realize that all the ‘promised’ support is not coming. They start crying out for help and pointing a finger at Russia. Boohoo! All the anti-Russian governments from Former Soviet states jump on the wagon and start pointing their finger at Russia… Big, bad bear!!! Spooky…! They are going to take over the world!!! Quick everyone, we need some propaganda!!!
SO the West +US +NATO start pressuring Russia to exit the region
Where were they when Russia called for a Security meeting when Georgians attacked? Ok, ok, lets give them some credit they were all concentrated on the Olympic Games, sod the 2000 civilians killed, they are not ‘our countries’ nationals’. France leads on the talks.
SO France and Russian agree, Georgia comes on board, and Mikhail Saakashvili starts acting smug again
The only thing here is this guy shot himself so many times in the foot that he doesn’t have a leg to stand on… :w00t:
Thanks Double-M, very interesting to hear what people closer to the trouble have to say, our press is very selective in what they report. As for George Bush throwing his words around, he needs to take a look at Guantanamo Bay before he comments on any other country’s actions.
What was done was wrong, but as I said, it was Soviet army, not Russians, please mind the difference.
I would really appreciate if you didn’t use this sort of language it is offensive and unnecessary. Additionally this comment seems irrelevant to this discussion thread.
As for the statue in Tallinn, it was not a Statue to USSR, or Stalin or whatever, It was a statue to the SOLDIERS that protected that region from Hitler and died on that soil. It is like tearing out a gravestone, would you agree with that? – But it was a statue to the USS for Estonians and a sign of 50 years of occupation and oppression. It was also a flashpoint with ethnic Russians turning up on May 4 (?) and burning Estonian flags on at least one occaison. 1945 for Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and I guess Poles, Hungarians, Czechs etc was less about the end of Hitler and the start of just another form of brutality. It was a grave and the bones underneath plus the momument itself were relocated – how sensitively is up for arguement of course. I was reporting on the riots for Tallinn and interviewed Russians, including a young woman who said her grandad died in the war, so where would she go mark his memory. I understand her point of view, but the monument is still there, jsut moved. Can you imagine a monument to the German occupation of Poland still standing in the centre of Warsaw, 16 years after it ended. That’s what the Bronze Soldier was in Tallinn. (havent’ gone through your whole post, as have to work, but will try to)
Excellent posts Double-M! 
Very interested to hear the views of someone with personal knowledge of Russia and the surrounding states. I think that you made some very valid and interesting points. The conflict between Georgia, South Ossettia and Russia is not a ‘black and white’ or a ‘good guy/bad guy’ issue - as you have pointed out, it is more complicated than that. I was also amazed to hear Condoleeza Rice/Bush and David Milliband (U.K. Foreign Minister) complaining about Russia’s illegal invasion of a sovereign state! (e.g. what was Iraq! Their personal plaything?). How they can speak like this and maintain their self-respect I do not know.
As far as I see it Communism is not equal to Russia, people who did these things to our nations were not necessarily Russians, they were Soviet. So I would appreciate if you didn’t mix up the two. – That’s true. Russia itself gained independence from the Soviet Union and hats off to Yeltsin for his role in that. But Russia is still bullying, intimidating, and seems to think former Soviet states, now independent nations, are fair game. They’re not. (I’m slowly and inexpertly getting these points down, hoping the boss doesn’t notice. I’d much rather a decent chat over a pint. The more I go on about these things in print the less clear I seem to be making myself.)
I was also amazed to hear Condoleeza Rice/Bush and David Milliband (U.K. Foreign Minister) complaining about Russia’s illegal invasion of a sovereign state! (e.g. what was Iraq! Their personal plaything?). How they can speak like this and maintain their self-respect I do not know. – I agree entirely, hence why I was just trying to stick to Russia. We could spin off into the hypocricy and actions of our own countries but this debate would never end
Thanks for posting this, Double M. Very interesting, as I mentioned earlier it is really important that the debate is informed by those with close links in or close to the region concerned.It seems the answer to this would be to have a UN multinational peacekeeping force in the region with no allegiances either way, but hopefully with better success than in Bosnia.
A key difficulty seems to be the fact that the UN Security Council is severely weakened by political infighting - Russia and China always seem to veto everything the US wants to do, which means despotic regimes in countries like Zimbabwe and Burma remain in power, and the UNSC seems to have practically no power at all. Iraq’s current problems were also caused by this.
If only some way could be found to end all the old cold-war rivalry, suspicion and childish petty tit-for-tat, then there may be some hope. In the meantime, it just seems to be a matter of time before something really big kicks off yet another global conflict.
I’m not saying the US is in the right over this. All I am saying is that if the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council don’t flipping well grow up sometime soon, not only are innocent people going to continue to die in the meantime, but, mark my words, we will all be paying the price in due course. It’s just a matter of time.
As the Manic Street Preachers once said, “if you tolerate this, then your children will be next”.
DUDE, What are you on about? i wasnt being offensive.
i do speak russian and my partner is russian/Ukrainian. My family are polish/french.
so i do understand all thats said on the tv.
as for your posts, im confused. one minute i feel your attacking russia then the next you repeat everything i said.
I understand your point and partially agree with what you are saying, because it does make me sick to see people worship Stalin (there are still psychos like that) and/or Hitler.
Soviets were not right to do what they did but doing wrong now to other nations (i.e. russians, south osetians, etc) is not right. Two wrongs do not make a right…
The problem for me is that everything is so political and no one cares what actually happens to the people who live in those countries. I just do not agree with anyone wanting to impose their opinion on others and feel like they can get away with it.
There are always two sides to the story and being who I am and where I am I can see both views and it makes me increasingly worried about a the general population.
