Anyone ever get a ticket for parking outside the white lines in a private (at work-Her Majestys Royal Mail) carpark. The carpark parking is controlled by UKPC in Iver. Our carpark is full this time of year (a lot of agency staff). There is no outside parking near the depot.
The rather small unlit signage states “Parking must be in a designated bay (this is the bit I don’t understand) outwise you may get a ticket” Does it have to state what is a designated bay is?
Can it be between two kerbs or does it have to be inside 2 rows of white lines? Ppl park 3 cars in a corner when there’s no where else, not blocking any access, turning point or road but it’s got no dbl yellows, crossed hatch or road markings just a disused part of the carpark. Yet UKPC ticket each one. There will be 3 more ticketed when I go to work at 21.00 (probably agency staff). I just don’t think it’s right without explaining what a designated parking bay is. Is it a grey area or am I being predamtious and annoyed with the bosses.
A ticket is £75 if paid early yet a lot of staff might be lucky to earn this after tax for the day.
Similar thing happened to others tonight at Sutton arena at 20:03. After my son finished football training we came out to the car park in the grounds to find parking wardens issuing tickets to cars in the car park which is in the arena grounds! A couple of the cars where parked in disabled bays without displaying valid badges (fair one) but another 4 where parked in coach only bays as all the other bays where full. Noticed some new small signs stating that new parking regs are in force but at 20:00 at night!
if the company is private they can’t do **** against you… there are posts on different forums how to get out of this situation, on the other hand if the company was hired by the local council then it is harder.
None the less their advice is to simply ignore them, when they send you a letter you simply state that the driver was someone else and this doesn’t concern you. Since they are a private company and they have no rights they cannot ask you for the other rider’s details, they don’t have the same powers as the police, so they cannot use the “prevent the course of justice”. Simply put there is nothing they can do… even if you park in a private car park, a pub, shopping center… whatever they can’t do **** about it, the only thing they can do is to clamp the vehicle and even then you can just take it off lol:)
I can top that I got a pakring ticket at 10:50pm once since then I have always checked parking times, I mean who would have thought you can get a ticket at nearly 11pm at night!!
Private clamping companies can pursue via a civil action. They are hired by the land holder. Often they get a lot of bad press and often for good reason due to some sharp practices. They are now regulated by the SIA but not sure if this is working to improve things
Personally I would be cautious about ignoring this ticket as you may find 6 months down the line a bailiff at your door.
Also removing a wheel clamp / chain is criminal damage so removing one - even if it’s ‘unjust’ and put on by a private company could get the police involved and let’s face it the firm are well used to people doing it and know how to play the game to their advantage.
Thanks Andrei,
there’s a bit in there that should do the trick.
Iggi,
no not HWDC, next big depot in along the A40 towards London. I’m in WK next week at 6pm - RSC’s to NDC.
Just can’t believe the attitude of the Managers regarding their own and agency staff, I’ve not heard of anybody contest these tickets. Well I’ll let you know what’s happening.
A photo of the car is as much use as a chocolate fireguard to them. They need to have proof of who the driver was and whether the driver agreed to enter into a contract with them and abide by the terms of their contract. They need proper signage up as well. As registered keeper, I would write back to them and point out that the registered keeper is under no obligation whatsoever to pay this charge, only the driver is. And the RK is under no obligation to state who the driver of the vehicle was at the time.
They may well write back and threaten to pass the matter to debt collectors. If they do, just write to them and point out that the matter is in dispute because of the fact that as the registered keeper you are not liable for the charge, only the driver is. Also inform them that this is your final correspondence in the matter and if you receive anything further, you will regard it as harassment and take the matter up with the relevent authorities.
So it will be back to the parking company. The only option they will have is to take you to court and to prove their case they will need to prove who the driver was and that they had a contract. It is highly unlikely they will go this far. These companies tend to rely on a heavy handed approach, scaring people into paying by claiming that the RK is liable, making their notices look like official PCN’s. If people stand up to them, they will buckle.
Also remember removing the wheel clamp might get you for damages if the clamped was damaged, if you can remove it without damage they can’t do ****, if you simply remove it and take it with you… they need to prove your vehicle was clamped and that you removed the clamp. Can’t see how they can do that either… unless they hide in the bushes with a camera. Not only that but they again must prove why they clamped your vehicle and what authorisation they have. I doubt the police would waste any time on this.
According to the law they must be a member of the BPA, on their warning sign they need to clearly show a UK contact address and a phone number, the address cannot be a BOX, there must be indication that the ticket must not be removed by unauthorised persons, must be secured, must have details on the location, must have details identifying the person who issued the ticket (padge number, warden ID etc)
Someone was in the exact same situation parking in B&Q, they received the penalty and a photo of their bike, this was the response:
“Thank you for sending me a photograph of my motorcycle [you might even say ‘a motorcycle’ if you want to neither-confirm-nor-deny it being yours]. I suggest you contact the person riding the vehicle when believe any offence to have occurred. Please refrain from contacting me again as this matter has no relevance to me.”
The following are things that could be relevant to you, after days reading up I saved what was teh best:
*Hello,
i have been following the template letters for some time on several fines (i work for a lease company) most of which have been cancelled. However i have received this e-mail from Trethownes today. Anyone on ideas far a reply?
Dear Mr. xxx
Thank you for your letter 3rd September confirming your unwillingness to pay the Charge Notice. You have asked for clarification of the “citations of case and or statute law” - I suggest you contact your Solicitor who know doubt will be able to help you understand that the claim is based in contract.
Please provide us with the driver’s details in order that we may transfer liability for payment.
If you are unwilling to provide these details then we must draw your attention to the following points. Our client’s conditions of contract relating to parking are detailed on the signage at the site. Failure to comply with the conditions of contract constitutes a breach of contract which entitles our clients to pursue the remedies referred to in the conditions of contract. These remedies include the right to clamp defaulting vehicles.
By virtue of the failure to pay the Charge Notice the breach of contract remains.
Accordingly, we must advise you that your vehicle registration has been recorded on our client’s database as an unpaid offending vehicle that has parked in breach of the conditions of contract. If your vehicle is seen at any of the sites managed by our client then it will be clamped, pursuant to the conditions of contract. In order to secure release of the clamp you will be required to pay a release fee and also any outstanding parking Charge Notices.*
You say:
“You have asked for clarification of the “citations of case and or statute law” - I suggest you contact your Solicitor who know doubt will be able to help you understand that the claim is based in contract.”
You may understand the background better if I explain that there is a huge volume of case and statute law that relates to contract. I have been unable to identify any that supports your case. It is for you to prove your case not me.
You say:
“Failure to comply with the conditions of contract constitutes a breach of contract which entitles our clients to pursue the remedies referred to in the conditions of contract. These remedies include the right to clamp defaulting vehicles.”
If, which I do not accept, there was a breach of contract then your remedy would be against the counterparty to that contract (a person) not the vehicle (an inanimate object). Please be advised that there are criminal laws that govern clamping. If my vehicle is clamped in circumstances that I believe may have been criminal I will have no hesitation in reporting the matter to the police and elsewhere. The circumstances you describe may well be such circumstances and may also constitute conspiracy.
*All letters, just love the fact they call themselves, ‘The Agency’, don’t think they are trying to copy official bodies do you???
Letter 2) The Road Traffic Act 1991 refers to enforcement authorities, meaning cops and local authoriities, not mickey Mouse Agencies. So do you think they are trying to copy official bodies, again???
So therefore if ‘The Agency’ was a lawful enforcement Authority and not a Mickey Mouse Agency, then the registered keeper would be liable, but as they are not, the RK is not.
Their assumption that the RK is the owner is contrary to the advice given by the DVLA, but it sort of props up their argument.
Letter 3) Wouldn’t they just love to be able to, ‘register the debt with the county court’, and then simply, ‘place the debt with bailiffs’. I didn’t read the part were they would have to issue a county court summons, present and win their case, then you fail to pay the judgement. I suppose that doesn’t support the threats in their letters though!!
Letter 4)
I see that your letter has provoked a reply from a, ‘Unidentified person’ from ‘PCPEA’, of the sinister, ‘Section 4RB’ What a bunch of bankers
Then the dreaded, FINAL DEMAND’
And the threat to present, ‘all letters sent and received’, Yeah like they would really want a judge reading the load of B*llocks thats been posted on here.
On page 4 of the five page letter, under the title, ‘Refusing to pay’assist’, £50 or £60 is a, ‘minor issue’. Well I suppose it is when you scam thousands of people. It goes on, ‘A court could see defendants as being obstructive as having something to hide’, It could also see that a person has the right not to respond to threats that have no legal status.
I’m sure a judge would love the fact that, ‘the agency’ is telling them what to infer from your non co-operation!!!
Section 143 WTF has it got to do with a private parking company, sorry ‘The Agency’, if you or whoever uses your vehicle is insured or not? Absolutely F/All thats what.
If you see that it is addressed to the, Driver, Hirer, Owner, it therefore follows that it could be any one of three people, so for instance, the driver might not be the owner and therefore cannot bind a third party(such as the owner) to a contract.*
The above reply was just a few thing pointing out their mistakes, in the end they will probablyd emand the driver because he/she might not be insured and by law they must be… so… who are they to ask or care if the driver was or not insured at the time. They will also throw silly traffic laws which again I would suggest looking up and see if they have any relevance, which they probably wont:)
“The Administration of Justice Act 1970.
Section 40 of the act provides that a person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under contract, he or she:
(a) harasses the other with demands for payment which by their frequency, or the manner or occasion of their making, or any accompanying threat or publicity are calculated to subject him or his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;
(b) falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;
(c) falsely represent themselves to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment;
(d) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not.
Paragraph (a) above does not apply to anything done by a person which is reasonable (and otherwise legal) for the purpose of :
(1) of securing the discharge of an obligation due, or believed by him to be due, to himself or to persons for whom he acts, or protecting himself or them from future loss; or
(2) of the enforcement of any liability by legal process.
It is also provided that a person may be guilty of an offence under paragraph (a) above if he concerts with others in the taking of such action as is described in that paragraph, notwithstanding that his own course of conduct does not by itself amount to harassment.
Thus if you receive one of these invoices and it appears to purport to be a PCN or FPN then I strongly suggest that you report the incident to the police. The police are DUTY BOUND to investigate and act. I had to have a ‘debate’ with the local Sgt to have him act on my behalf, however if you are polite and firm then the police should take it on for you.”
Where something appears in square brackets eg [dd/mmmm/yyyy] it is for you to insert what is relevant to you.
You may need to make contextual changes for your circumstances.
The first letter:
The purpose of this letter is simply to acknowledge theirs and to deny liability. It should read something like this:
Quote:
Dear Sirs,
Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]
I acknowledge receipt of your captioned letter. It seems that you have got my details from the DVLA and I confirm I am the keeper of the vehicle in question. You need to take this matter up with the driver concerned.
In the meantime I absolutely deny your claim that the amount claimed, or any amount at all, is due to you from me.
Yours faithfully
If you are writing for someone else (eg partner, parent etc) you will need to have your partner/parent etc write as follows:
Quote:
Dear Sirs,
Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]
I acknowledge receipt of your captioned letter. It seems that you have got my details from the DVLA and I confirm I am the keeper of the vehicle in question. I have appointed my [husband etc] [Mr John Smith] to act on my behalf and protect my interests in this matter.
Please direct all further correspondence to [him/her].
Yours faithfully
And you then write an amended first letter as follows:
Quote:
Dear Sirs,
Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]
I have been asked by [my wife] to handle this matter for [her]. [She] wrote to you on [dd mmmm yyyy] (copy enclosed). You need to take this matter up with the driver concerned.
In the meantime [she] absolutely denies your claim that the amount claimed or any amount at all is due to you from her.
Yours faithfully
If you are lucky that will be the end of the matter and you will hear no more.
It is more likely that they will write again, this is where it becomes more tricky to compose a template. What I have done is to write a basic letter and made suggestions for paragraphs you can insert depending on what they have said.
The basic letter:
This is the top and tail ready for paragraphs to be added.
Quote:
Dear Sirs,
Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]
I refer to previous correspondence.
[#]
Unless you provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me I shall be unable to assist you further in this matter and I restate my denial of this claim.
Yours faithfully
The variable paragraphs to add to the basic letter:
You will need to make the appropriate amendments if you are writing for someone else.
You may need to write more than once. I suggest that two or three times is sufficient before moving on to a “cease and desist” letter.
If they have simply ignored what you have previously said. Quote:
At this juncture there is nothing further that I can add to my letter of dd mmmm yyyy (copy enclosed).
If they refer to you as owner. Quote:
I note that you refer to me as owner. I have acknowledged only that I am the keeper.
If they claim that you are responsible for the alleged debt. Quote:
You appear to claim that I, as keeper, am legally responsible for this alleged debt. I deny this. Please substantiate this claim with appropriate citations of case and/or statute law.
If they have added further charges: Quote:
I note that you have increased the amount of the alleged debt. Given that you have failed to substantiate and support your claim that I am indebted to you; this is unreasonable, inappropriate and, quite probably, unlawful. In addition to my previous denials I absolutely deny any liability to you for this additional sum.
If they allege that you were the driver or that you have to name the driver: Quote:
If your allegation is that I was the driver then please produce evidence of this to substantiate your claim. I have to advise you that the driver could have been any one of a number of people and I keep no records of who has driven the car on any given day.
If they threaten debt collection: Quote:
I note your comments about debt collectors. Given that this debt is in dispute I shall simply advise them that the debt is in dispute and they will have to refer back to you.
If they threaten court action: Quote:
I will welcome the opportunity to defend your allegation in court and am confident of success. Of course you will be required to produce the evidence that I have requested and you have failed to provide. You will also have to answer to the court why you failed to do so.
NOTE: In either of the two circumstances above, you may wish also to add the relevant bits from the “Cease and Desist letter”.
The cease and desist letter:
With this letter you are basically telling them to “put-up or shut-up”.
Having followed the steps above, particularly if a further two or three letters have been written after the initial denial. It will be a very rash private parking company to take it further. They will simply have to explain why they did not respond.
Quote:
Dear Sirs,
Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]
I refer to previous correspondence.
I do not feel that you are acting reasonably in this matter.
I have asked you to provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me and you have not done so. I feel that I have done all that I can to assist you. Unless you provide evidence to substantiate your claim against me I shall be unable to help you further in this matter.
This alleged debt therefore remains disputed by me. Save for supplying the evidence referred to above I must ask you to cease and desist correspondence with me.
Other than as described above, any further correspondence from you or any other party in relation to this matter may result in a complaint to the authorities under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997.
Yours faithfully
If you receive a letter from debt collectors:
Quote:
Dear Sirs,
Re: Your letter dated [dd/mmmm/yyyy] Reference[#]
This alleged debt is in dispute. I have written to your principal on a number of occasions and they have failed to substantiate their claim.
In the circumstances please refer this matter back to your client.
Any further correspondence from you in relation to this matter may result in a complaint to the authorities under the Protection From Harassment Act 1997.
So mate you should have plenty to go on and I see no problem getting them to back off, if by a mircale they can provide you with the information requested then simply pay the fine, if they don’t you know they are pissing in the wind.
Hi Lustfish was the ticket put on the windscreen or photgraphed entering and leaving a carpark?
If it’s put on the windscreen and photographed by the warden. They have to prove the photo is in the carpark. They also have to prove who was driving the car. They will want to know who the owner is and if it’s not a councils carpark your friend is under no obligation to tell them as it’s not ‘preverting the course of justice’. Your friend just tells them she/he is the registered keeper (RK) and nothing more. They will have to get your friends details of the DVLA.
Follow some of the tickets fought on the links above.
A Charge Certificate came today - no postal address only P.O box no. to make it harder to send by registered post. No landline phone number either which are both required to be displayed on the board.
The photo doesn’t show where the car was parked. Just a nice pic of the back of my car.
The ticket was stuck to the wing mirror of the bike
No idea if it was photographed but the signage in the car park said that the vehicle will have been photographed…
Hi Lustfish (writings gone all small),
What type of carpark was your friend in?
Wait for the so called evidence to come. It will probably be a nice photo so the back of your friends bike and nothing more. This doesn’t prove who the rider was, or where the photo was taken. It’s not down to the owner to pay the fine only the rider which they have to prove and your friend doesn’t have to provide this info.
Probably be a P.O box as well. So get your friend to ring the village/town where ever Post office is and ask for the address of that P.O box number (on the return envelope) which they (the Post office) have to give you. Then send a recorded delivery letter stating that it has nothing to do with her. Don’t say anything else.
