[quote]What made me laugh is that on my assessed ride with the Examiner (A copper) I filtered (and messed it up) and he said he'd rather I rode as normal than pretend I was an angel! He also said my overtakes were spot on - and I knew my first (over cautious) observer would have failed me on them. The copper described them in my assessment as "brisk" :-)Would love to hear how they treat making progress and filtering in London, having been pulled up for riding “London style” in the sticks…
bluelagos
[/quote]I would imagine that depends on the experiences from the Observer’s and Examiner’s.
Born and bred in the smoke they’re likely to be more…liberal.
‘My friend’ had an Observer often would not filter as ‘my friend’ did but was happy to let him get away with a lot. The Observer’s used to ride the wheels off his R80 Boxer or whatever it was!
They’d do the Observed ride and debrief and then spend the rest of the day giving up some!
SneakyMcC
^^ hahahahaha brisk or spirited is a word I often used
Overtakes are one thing, but the riding that akes my blood run cold on a daily basis is filtering at 50mph through slow moving or stationary traffic on the M4. Call me over cautious, but 30 mph is the quickest I ever get having had too many cars do pointless lane changes just ahead. And woe betide you if you have the temerity to not pull over quick enough when one of these twats comes up your arse, helmet shakes and they scream past.
Personal experience: Giles is a Police rider and Rapid Training instructor. Have been out with him. Fantastic education opportunity - years of experience compressed into one day. Seriously, transformational for your riding to go out with someone who has years of intensely thoughtful riding to draw on when evaluating situations, and gives you a live feed on how to read the road.
OK, I’m done with the ‘you need to do this’ speech.
Hi fuckers, long time eh?
Listen up
Having done rospa (gold) and IAM, my training had been very varied, i have been trained by ex coppers, active coppers, and well meaning amateurs, most notably when doing rospa, my instructor was a very talented and progressive countryside rider, he was a builder by trade, so commuted in a van, NOT on a bike and his idea of a safety bubble was VERY different to mine. At the time i was doing 15k a year commuting through town, within a few inches of everyone else as you are all used to. This guy was going apeshit about how tiny my margins were, and he had a point, but only so far.
When it came to filtering I left the guy behind, as you might expect, but the same was also true of overtakes and anything dealing with traffic, on open roads with no traffic, the guy was quick, well observed, intelligent and very deserving of his status as instructor, but his experience was limited. Mine wasn’t better, but it was different. I will still pull overtakes he doesn’t like, and leave him for dust once the traffic starts, but on an open road his control is a beautiful thing to observe
Dismiss this training at your peril, it’s good shit, but be intelligent and make your own judgement. Your training is different depending on the experience of your instructor, and how it relates to you, and your riding, they are not angels of advanced riding, it is just their opinion, based on their interpretation of roadcraft, mine is way more aggressive than any of the instructors i have met, but way less aggressive than any of the testers i have met, all of whom are ex old bill.
On test, ride like you stole it, don’t hold back, I broke speed limits on every test, within reason, because the circumstances demanded that it was prudent in terms of MY safety.
Lighten up, this shit makes you better, safer, faster, and LESS boring.
It requires intelligence, very good observation and excellent planning, which are skills that take time to learn,but only if you are willing to make the right amount of effort.
Good post KTM D.
There’s that ‘Planning’ word again! I wonder if Giles has a thread on that! 
Having done rospa (gold) and IAM, my training had been very varied, i have been trained by ex coppers, active coppers, and well meaning amateurs, most notably when doing rospa, my instructor was a very talented and progressive countryside rider, he was a builder by trade, so commuted in a van, NOT on a bike and his idea of a safety bubble was VERY different to mine. At the time i was doing 15k a year commuting through town, within a few inches of everyone else as you are all used to. This guy was going apeshit about how tiny my margins were, and he had a point, but only so far.When it came to filtering I left the guy behind, as you might expect, but the same was also true of overtakes and anything dealing with traffic, on open roads with no traffic, the guy was quick, well observed, intelligent and very deserving of his status as instructor, but his experience was limited. Mine wasn’t better, but it was different. I will still pull overtakes he doesn’t like, and leave him for dust once the traffic starts, but on an open road his control is a beautiful thing to observe
Dismiss this training at your peril, it’s good shit, but be intelligent and make your own judgement. Your training is different depending on the experience of your instructor, and how it relates to you, and your riding, they are not angels of advanced riding, it is just their opinion, based on their interpretation of roadcraft, mine is way more aggressive than any of the instructors i have met, but way less aggressive than any of the testers i have met, all of whom are ex old bill.
On test, ride like you stole it, don’t hold back, I broke speed limits on every test, within reason, because the circumstances demanded that it was prudent in terms of MY safety.
Lighten up, this shit makes you better, safer, faster, and LESS boring.
It requires intelligence, very good observation and excellent planning, which are skills that take time to learn,but only if you are willing to make the right amount of effort.
This extract to me sounds as if the opinion is that it’s a race against the instructor and by losing him/her in the assessment makes you a better rider around town. Just because you reckoned it was safe to filter at speed and you made it to the destination first you felt you were safe in your judgement. I just know that sometimes I feel I am progressive through town but if I’m honest when I’m commuting am I completely safe? I try to be but if I’m really true to myself I could be a bit more patient and perhaps filter further away from the traffic? My route changed from doing the same one for over 7 years and I encountered new obstacles especially given that it was on Commercial Road, one I know is re-nouned for accidents. The amount of side roads and traffic when riding in bus lanes is a massive hazard and one not to be taken lightly on this stretch and I myself became a cropper recently however the circumstances were quite different (guy ran a red light, Cotton St/East india Dock Road, hit & run and left me with broken leg). I just think many progressive riders that are commuters could most likely be more cautious. I rode with many fast bikers each morning and I reckon each and every one at some point has disappeared off the road for a period of time only to find they have been t-boned by someone pulling out of a junction. Mostly deemed non-fault but could they have been a bit more cautious? It’s all hazard perception like that picture. Would you continue at speed or would you approach with caution? I find when riding in London there is a hazard on every second of my journey with the amount of people sharing the road. If I’m faster on the road my stopping distances have decreased surely and therefore my risks have increased of something happening. We’ve all seen the unexpected U-Turn of a car in front or a pedestrian not looking where they are going.
I’m really interested in an advanced course next year as I too would like to see how I can improve my skills in road craft.
Thank you Sneaky for posting, I find peoples perspectives interesting…
What needs to be remembered is that the emergency services advanced riding aids progression where it’s safe as the emphasis is safely getting to an emergency call as fast as possible (well mostly). As a general rider does it really need to be that progressive? The emphasis for most will be planning and hazard perception which naturally leads to progression.
I agree with BikerGirl, on reflection of my riding from when I first started riding/commuting compared to now. Most journeys are quicker without the high speed/risky filtering and the amount of road users, from all sides, bikes included that don’t pay attention when using a vehicle is appalling. Haven’t dealt with numerous cases as a result of this over the years it’s just not worth it to save two minutes realistically.
Hi Bikergirl, sorry to hear about you leg! How are you healing?
Another good post, I see a lot of me in there 
All this chat has me reading Giles’s threads again, always does.
This thread has evolved to Urban Riding Giles has an app that that! http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/249644-Urban-Riding
I have broken my own rule here by copying and pasting Giles’s work. I dont have the Roadcraft Skills of Giles and worry I’ll pass on his wisdom out of context.
A lot of our riding plans, urban or rural, are based on ‘what can you see, what can’t you see what might you reasonably expect to develop’. In town your biggest risk of an accident comes from things you can’t see; hidden junctions, traffic you haven’t seen, unexpected manouvers from cars who haven’t seen you. In the picture below, look at what you can’t see here, not what you can. (Although the 6" of black bumper helps…!) Take away the Ped X and start filtering down the outside of the taxi. The white enterprise van has hiden the junction, now you’re off side of the taxi and he is hiding the black car, the black car is flashed out … Accident. Cure? 3 seconds ago I should have asked myself what can’t I see behind either of the white vans.
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In the eighties I was dispatching in town. I had a kawasaki GT550 with a big barn door fairing on the front. One fateful day it was raining, people were rushing, and I was filtering past traffic coming down the Cornhill towards the Bank of England. I was passing a double decker bus in the stationary queue and an old gent walked straight out from the front of the bus into my path. He appeared, with the back of his head towards me, looking at the traffic coming the other way. I remember shouting out loud, not even having time to hit my horn. I hit him at about 20mph, and we both went sprawling. He was carted off in an ambulance, his leg broken and visibly swelling by the second. I had to stop myself from throwing up.
The police dismissed it, laid the blame with the pedestrian for not looking and I never heard another thing. Was it the old guys fault? I was young and lacked experience, and made a classic error of riding to what I could see, and not even giving a second thought to what I couldn’t.
When riding in town, constantly evaluate what you see, asking yourself what you can’t see, and who or what is lurking out of sight.
Attachments
One of 'My friends' Observers was of the same opinion, for someone who apparently used to race motorcycles at club level his advised progression in the sticks was ridiculously slow, 'My friend' was told you'd fail for not being progressive enough as its not of an Advanced level. The advice given to to be between the 2 (but closer to the Progressive).
What needs to be remembered is that the emergency services advanced riding aids progression where it's safe as the emphasis is safely getting to an emergency call as fast as possible (well mostly). As a general rider does it really need to be that progressive? The emphasis for most will be planning and hazard perception which naturally leads to progression.
Curtis
There are some really great words of wisdom on here.
I too used to be a despatch rider in the 80’s. Being in my late teens and early 20’s, my eyesight was much better, my reactions were lightening fast, and I never had a serious accident in over 4 years of being a DR, so was probably on borrowed time anyway. There was a lot less traffic on the roads back then. There was also a lot that I did not know about motorcycling, and I was not aware that I did not know it either - for the teachers or coaches on here, that’s what know as “level 1” of the 4 levels of learning, “unconscious incompetence”. I did not know about positioning for best vision on the outside of a bend, or about tyres warming up or having best operating temperatures.
I’ve not heard of Giles before, so I’ve learnt something on this thread, and will look at those links later, thanks Sneaky. One thing I would add is if sunlight is behind us, it is in the face of road users coming towards us, restricting their vision of us.
You may have to register on that site. Unfortunately is normally only the more informed of us that will take the time and have an open mind to someone else’s experience.
Bikergirl hit home with her post.
Everyone’s perception of risk or self preservation varies considerably, hence how fast they ride regardless of ability or training in my opinion.
My strap line (sign-off signature) on bike forums used to be “Aceman - I have a very healthy fear of pain!”. For the two things that I’m into, there is a lot of potential to get hurt, so I tend to err towards the side of caution. And that is also my reason (excuse even) for being so slow on bends.
As going round a bend that you can’t see around means going at a pace that you are comfortable with and able to stop safely on being required to do so.
‘always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road’
Slower in, faster out.
I’d love to get observed by someone on my daily commute. Planning is absolutely key - often I sacrifice my progress at the present to be in a better position a mile down the road. The number of people that go down the bus lane between Kennington and elephant, I gang back and go down the outside pretty much every time so as not to get stuck behind buses at the end of that road, who in turn are stuck behind people turning in from the left at the traffic lights. Planning, and remembering where the pinch points are on your come and avoiding them if possible.