New thread: Respect for the police

Off-topic
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I’ll start (Didn’t wish to post on other thread about 2 innocent officers whose families are hope get the justice they deserve)

I have lost an awful lot of respect for the police for obvious reasons. As if killing 96 fans isn’t enough,
they went out of their way to lie about it and to deflect the blame from own inadequate policing.

Taking blood samples from the dead served only 1 purpose, to back up their lies about a “drunken mob”.

Doing Police checks on the dead served only 1 purpose, to present the dead as criminal types.

My personal interview was a disgusting affair when a policeman from the WMSCS accused me of being a leftwing agitator because of what I was wearing…

(A free Mandela t-shirt)

11 months later a copper from the SYP told me to my face he thought 95 dead fans was a “Good days work”.

Almost every copper at SYP went along with the cover up. Almost every copper (from top to bottom) at the WMSCS went along with the cover up.

Anyone who thinks the police deserve our respect, should remember how they behaved here. Not all coppers are bastards, that is a statement too far.
But with regards to Hillsborough and their cover up - 95% of them went along with it. Yeah, they no doubt felt pressure to do so…
but very few showed themselves to officers of integrity.

So sorry lads - Respect has to be earned - and I for one have very little respect for the boys in blue from SYP who have shown time and again that they will
lie through their teeth to cover up for their colleagues. Stolen cctv film, changed statements etc.

They do a tough job (as shown this week) - with little thanks at times - but until they are serious about holding themselves to account, they will always remain
a club of them and us to me. And as survivor of Hillsborough - I am still waiting for justice for the people they killed and for the slander they served on me (and others)

Defaming the dead has to be one of the lowest things i can think of…I give you the SYP and the WMSCS.

Respect has to be earned…and two dead coppers, as tragic is that is, in Manchester isn’t going to change the facts that their behavour is all too often fallen
way behind the level I would personally expect.

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As for the generalizations:

In 1989, Liverpool fans had a track record. Heysel was just 4 years earlier and I am sure many policemen felt they were likely to be hooligans on the terraces. They were briefed about the dangers too.

That mentality led to a lot of people dying…the policemen who didn’t open the gate near me - when people were screaming things like “I can’t breath” “People are dying” - what was that copper thinking when he turned his back and walked away?

Unless he wanted us to die.

Why did it take 23 years for the truth to come out? Because the authorities chose to believe the words of the “honest” police over the dishonest football fans.

The police killed a lot of people that day - some of their cock ups outside - and some due to their mistaken belief that they were dealing with a hooligan issue. Why else would you turn away 40 ambulances?

They made judgements / had prejudiced views / believed the generalisaitons - call it what you will. Those judgements/views killed people.

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There is something I still don’t understand about Hillsborough, after watching various documentaries and reading your excellent blog.
As it is happening, as people are visibly getting crushed against the barriers, am I expected to believe that constables, ordinary workaday police officers,
as individuals, decided that they would a)Leave the fans to die, and b) Each feel personal responsibility for deaths as they are occurring, to the extent that they felt
it necessary to begin fabricating stories to cover themselves?
Surely under any sort of circumstances, when people are dieing around you, it doesn’t matter whether you are wearing a police uniform or a clown costume…
human nature obligates you to help somehow?
The fact was that most of them didn’t, and I’m not prepared to accept that each and every one of those coppers was that heartless and calculating.
I can accept that higher up the food chain, the heirarchy were uncomfortable after the event, and the fact that they went to such extents to warp the truth is deplorable at best,
but surely ’ PC Joe Bloggs, father of two and keen cyclist’ wasn’t making those kind of split second decisions? With the greatest respect to the coppers that post on here, they don’t put brain surgeons on football duty, any more than they send nuclear physicists to the front line in Afghanistan. So what was it that led them to behave the way they did?

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God knows…perhaps that is one reason for the cover up - cos they were so ashamed of their own conduct.

btw - some coppers did help - but the majority did not. THe majority formed a line (2 deep) across the pitch to keep the fans away from the Forrest fans. Watch the coverage and tell me how many police were carrying fans on the makeshift stretchers? Around 1030 coppers on duty, maybe 30 odd helping with the injured…I’ve not counted them, but it was in the 10s not the 100s.

The majority - even when it was apparent that people were dead - still did nothing to help. Nothing. They were out of their depth and showed little humanity that day, or the days following.

Football fans were seen as scum back then, treated like scum too. Caged in, with pens and fences.

116 had their statements altered…so that’s 116 (Out of 1030) who were willing to be critical of the SYP…but most of those signed their new statements without complaint.

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Policing and stewarding has changed dramatically in 23 years partly due to the findings of the flawed earlier report. I’m not having a pop at you bluelagos you have every right to feel bitter but I have a respect for the Police as they go out there every day and deal with all the dross and crap and then watch Judicial system issue weak sentences so they can do it all over again the next day/week/month.

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At football matches I agree…we are treated 100 times better today. Thankfully.

But what concerns me more (and always has) is the cover up.,…the unwillingness to hold their hands up and say yeah, we messed…

I think there is valid question to ask: Has anything improved with regards to police lying to cover up their mistakes…

How long ago was Jean Charles De Menzes killed? (They initially lied when they said he jumped a barrier / wore baggy clothes)
How long ago was did Ian Tomlinson die? (They initially lied about their being “no contact” with the police)
How long ago did they kill Duggan? (They initially lied that he shot first)

In all of the above, the actions by the police were arguably justified…(That’s another debate)…What wasn’t justified was the lies from own Met Police. With regards to being honest when they made (an honest) cockup - they seem to have learned nothing in the past 23 years.

btw - Please don’t tell me I am bitter…i am not bitter, I am angry. A subtle difference, but important one I think. I know some decent coppers on here (Roadrunner for example) and have no reason to doubt them in anyway. How they would have reacted at the time I have no idea…maybe they would have joined in the cover up, maybe they would be one of the very few who refused to. That is only something they can answer and is maybe a discussion to be had over a pint :slight_smile: rather than on here.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hillsborough-warning-of-coverup-was-ignored-by-judge-8142516.html?fb_action_ids=10151148234508695&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582#access_token=AAADWQ6323IoBAEPpKOx1fnQv8hLzhrWpfK8fOWlRhmLdGctj40I5gkEZCCNhkafNHA5GpyrTzQBqaXopub137lX84kSFC9DXLjo2eeAZDZD&expires_in=5815

Anyone wondering about the cover up should read this…the redacted name is believed to be Peter Wright (Head of SYP) though that can not be said 100% - the cover up carries on - still - to this day…why redact the name? Other than the fact that this guy was the most central policeman to the whole thing.

Also - hats off to the Policeman involved…what a star. Shame he left the SYP in disgust at what they were doing…would think they need as many honest coppers as possible in the circumstances.

He is a Policeman I respect - 100%. He’s earned it and deserves to be saluted…instead he felt compelled to resign.

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The only motivation I can think of for those coppers not to dive in and help is fear.
Perhaps they were so used to having rocks thrown at them that they found it impossible to differentiate between a crowd of football supporters screaming in fear, and a crowd of Millwall supporters baying for blood? That’s why the fences were installed at pitches in the first place right?
I know growing up in York, (hardly a premier team…) that match days rarely passed off peacefully, and it was a brave man who would stray down Bootham Crescent at kicking out time.
So in terms of blame…
The hooligan element who destroyed the game for real fans, and forced the club owners to put up fences to stop pitch invasions by drunk violent muppets?
The designers of the fences, who clearly made no provision for the circumstances that unfolded?
I think the cover-up made a tragic situation worse, and the people in charge should be facing criminal charges, but I don’t know that I can in all conscience lay the blame squarely at the feet of the coppers on duty that day.

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Those 3 instances you bring up lately Bluelagos show how things have changed. The first two have been through the Judicial process. You might not agree with the inquest or court case verdict but they have been heard. The Duggan inquest will be heard later/early next year. None of these have been covered up and in the Tomlinson case all evidence was put before 12 good men/women and again you may not agree with it but the bad apple was dealt with. A friend of mine will be sentenced next month who was a policeman I don’t agree with the verdict that was reached and the implication and impact it will have on all his family but then justice has to be seen to be served.

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In relation to Duggan you should do some research before making statements. At NO point did the Police ever say he shot first. They said an officer had a bullet lodged in his radio. They quickly identified it as a police round.

Duggan was also under surveillance. You don’t get tailed for no reason. Please wait for a judicial outcome before making rash comments. Also, as result of that shooting thousands of officers worked for weeks and weeks without a day off, hundreds were injured, under constant attack, several were shot at and protected this city as best they could.

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I’m only posting to assist you understand rather than pointa finger. I learned donkeys years ago at junior school, people lie when accuse.It is ingrained into the majority, lie first and protect yourself frompunishment and only own up when forced too.

So I’m not defending the Officers in charge, just helpingyou understand lies to protect from harm happen nearly every time.

Why did things go wrong that day and why didn’t anyone doanything to stop it. Well I’ve worked in critical environments where you gettrained to act first to the situation, then after a few years you get used tothe routine and behave on route. It’s fantastic, you react faster, solve theissues quicker, but you stop thinking and problem solving as the price. So whenthe unusual occurs, the mind burps. You try to continue the established way,even though you see it isn’t working, until eventually some part of the braincomes up with a possible solution. That can take time, and during that time thedamage goes on.

Putting up those fences was new wasn’t it, and I don’t thinkit occurred to the managers experts there was a death issue there, until ithappened.

So whilst I understand every bit of sadness you feel, andmaybe you don’t go that far, the need for revenge and appropriate punishment. Bothof which I’d agree with. We really are looking at punishment for officersconcerned who acted like humans when accused and whose professional faults werea matter of inexperience in dealing with a situation and environment whichlater caused an awful tragedy.

So I’d pardon the bobby on the ground, but the officersdoing the later spin, I’m less sympathetic that they continued to lie as theydo to this day in other scenarios like this.

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John…maybe you should do your own research…but to help you, attached is a newspaper report at the time

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8682655/Mark-Duggan-killed-in-shooting-incident-involving-police-officer.html

Quote: They added that the police officer had been saved after the bullet fired at him struck his radio.

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Sorry I don’t read tabloids. I rely on facts. At what point does is this an official statement from the Police? A police ‘source’ is not an official for the Police. If you can find an official statement from the Police I will retract my statement.

Every single incident whereby someone is shot/killed by the police is instantly referred to the IPCC who are completely independent from the Police so to accuse the police of cover ups in todays society is just wrong. Only because they do not release all the facts at the time does not mean it is a cover up. It means there is an investigation ongoing.

I’m not disagreeing with your opinions on Hillsborough, I wasn’t there so I can’t comment. I don’t know the facts. The only issue I have with your posts are the comments on Duggan, De Menzes and Tomlinson. All have been investigated by an independent body so conspiracy theories are pointless.

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http://www.standard.co.uk/news/father-dies-and-policeman-hurt-in-terrifying-shootout-6429782.html

“earlier a spokesman said the suspect had fired first”

John, the police might have said one thing in public, but they were feeding lies to the press. Can’t see how you can deny that…

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That was an IPCC source btw.

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Got to run…will let Kaos pick up the baton!

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Here is an interesting thing about “sources” in this country.

They are unnamed. People close to, a police sources, etc etc.

In America, as I understand it, sources are named, so that if that sources lies or attempts to mislead people, they are held accountable.

Who from the police, when acting as a source, is held accountable? Have we had the stories about how the police source in the De Menezes case has been stripped of rank, sacked, had charges brought against them, faced a charge of defamation of character?

No.

So I take unnamed sources with a pinch of salt. They shouldn’t even be reported.

The only people who should be unnamed sources are people who are whistle blowing. Saying who shot first is not whistle blowing, so why can’t we name them, and have them held accountable, have their career on the line?

We might get to the truth a hell of a lot quicker than we currently do if that was the case.

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What spokesman? This is not a press release by the police. Its another tabloid newspaper. I think you are missing my point.

The IPCC spokesman said:

“a “non-police issue” handgun was also found at the scene.He said that the exact sequence of events had yet to be determined but earlier a spokesman said the suspect had fired first.”

This is not a police statement so again I ask that you provide an official police statement.

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I think the title of this thread should reflect the topic inside bud…can you include Hillsborough or something herewith;)

taaaaa

smiled.

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John…

My original point was that the police first lied in saying that Duggan shot first. I stand by that statement 100%. The quotations are in the press for all to read. Just as they lied 23 years ago in saying a drunken mob broke broke down a gate.

And you know what else hasn’t changed in 23 years…on both occasions they did exactly the same thing…these gave their misinformation to the press, off the record. They didn’t even have the decency to put their name to their lies. Same as they didn’t 23 years ago. Just fed their lies to their friends in the press. The same guys who have now being shown to have been paying the police for information for years. (Are you going to deny that too? - Prosecutions coming I believe)

You can try and defend the misinformation they fed to the press, hiding behind the fact the sources were not named, but the fact remains the police initially lied about the circumstances of the shooting and fed their incorrect version of the events to the press.

(Unless you are claiming that the reporters of the Daily Telegraph and Standard made up the quotes? In which case, why are they not being prosecuted?)