FIltering Ding Insurance Q

Help & Advice Legal
1

Question for T.C. et al;

Someone took a little nibble out of me this morning. Just after A2 goes down to 50 London bound by the Black Prince near Bexley.

The lady and I got on fine, she was quite shaken up but actually we both got away from it reasonably well.

My belief is that she indicated as she moved from the outside lane into the middle lane. I hit her nearside front wheel arch but luckily I decided to come off the brakes and swerve with her at the last moment so that I didn’t launch over her bonnet and managed to stay on it and end up in the middle lane the right way up.

A van driver was very quick to scribble down his number and give it to me as a witness for insurance as having watched it he believed it to be her fault but the three of us aren’t insurance experts of course. EDIT: Van drive has got back to me and agrees that he never saw her indicate

It was pretty clear that the lady and I wouldn’t agree on fault there and then, and so I gently suggested we leave that for the insurance companies as it wasn’t worth us falling out over and she agreed. Given the rashing to my fairing and the scrape to her wheel arch and her broken wing mirror ( I think I hit that with my elbow) I don’t think this is going to be done off-insurance and I don’t really want to have to bodge the bike clean again if this isn’t my fault legally.

Speaking as an experienced motorcyclist and detail irrelevant I think to the insurance question; I should have done better on this one in that perhaps I could have been going a bit slower. She really caught me out on this one as there wasn’t actually a gap for her to move into so I’ll be honest it was the last thing I was expecting. Given the low sun at the time, it would be unreasonable of me to expect her to have seen me coming, and I don’t often miss much but I do see it as plausible that I could have missed her indicator in the glare.

The question is, given the information I’ve provided and on everyone’s knowledge of precedent with filtering dings, is this going to be a 50/50 or her fault?

Thanks all in advance

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Glad to hear you’re OK, walking and talking about it.

I don’t know so much but it seems to me you may have raised your hands to driving too fast while the view ahead was impaired by the glare of a low winter sun. This could be seen as driving that falls below the standard expected of a competent driver or Careless Driving as the Courts prefer.

If she was nudging her way into a lane change and not indicating her driving could also be seen as driving that falls below the standard expected of a competent driver. I’m also of the opinion in these filtering incidents that the driver doesn’t see the motorcyclist because they don’t look, if they had looked they would have see the motorcyclist and not made the manoeuvre.

This one looks as if it took two to tango. It is a low pay out for the insurance companies and if left to them not worth their while in pursuing fault, they’d probably agree on a knock for knock if that’s still a thing.

3

Yes like you say I’m okay and by the looks of things the only damage to the bike is purely cosmetic so these are all nice problems to have.

I can’t agree that the view ahead was impaired by the low sun, I just raised as a possibility when writing it that I might have missed her indicator but I am definitely discounting that having heard back from the van driver but it wasn’t something that caused me any trouble during my ride except tougher rear observations. At 8.30am ( I went into work an hour later this morning as I am staying later this evening) it wasn’t a piercing glare - however I would say the view behind was somewhat impaired from the glare in their mirrors so as an experienced rider I wasn’t expecting drivers to see me. I would like to think that the way I was riding took that into account but clearly not if I ended up hitting something!

So I would estimate she was doing 5-7mph and I 22-23mph I can’t have been doing much more than that as somehow I managed to stop in the middle lane in the gap that didn’t exist that she was trying to push into. I recall on my speed awareness course the other week the difference that 1 mph made between 30 and 31mph and while I would admit to friends that it is plausible I could have been going too fast, I don’t think this is a subjective point that I would raise between a conversation on the issue between myself and my insurer. I would just simply state the speeds as above and let them draw their own conclusions. I am keen to separete discussions between where insurance draws fault, and the standards we hold ourselves to as “good bikers”. I’d be stupid to suggest that on another day I wouldn’t do anything differently as I think anyone that rides like that won’t be around much longer, but I know insurance doens’t always work in the same way.

Another friend did highlight that insurance companies don’t bother investigating for a low impact claim with no injuries and I can understand that. Does anyone know if that is a blanket that applies to all filtering incidents?

As far as describing the event goes, it was I would say less “nudging her way” and more of an erratic “I want that lane now, quick manoeveur, indicator on after steering wheel move” it is a move that would have also caused the van she was cutting in front of to take avoidance as if he hadn’t braked she would’ve caused an accident with him. He pretty much said as much

As both my bikes are worth less than £4k each, I typically don’t insure fully comp as I like to just fix used for used or patch a repair as opposed to the insurance approach of sourcing a new component and paying garage labour rates ( Not that this ever happens to me!). Therefore I am in the situation ( which of course I don’t feel sorry for myself in because I chose it!) where I am TPFT only, and so I can’t see this ever going down as my fault, but I need to know in advance if this is going to cost me money as I don’t want to shell out silly insurance repair money only to foot the bill myself, or I’d just get a repair paint patch pen on the job

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4

If she didn’t indicate and there was no gap for her to pull into and you have the witness it looks like a done deal and she is 100% at fault. How you pursue that is down to you, hopefully TC will be along soon with his expert advice.

5

I’ve got in touch with my insurance and filled out a claim. I’ve been honest in what I’ve said and I can only hope she has too because whatever happens I don’t really want it dragging on forever. These things can just hang around like a bad smell.

Will keep the community informed either way

6

I asked about this when I did my BikeSafe day and the copper’s opinion was while filtering is legal you are on your own when it comes to insurance claims: they will always try to settle 50/50 because that is simpler for them to understand and better for their industry: ie two NCBs are cancelled.

Glad to hear you are not damaged, sorry to hear your pocket might be.

7

People often say one thing at the scene and then get leaned on by their spouses/friends and change their tune. Expect her to lie through her teeth, that’s what people do.

Your case probably rests in the hands of the van driver’s witness statement, you had better hope he takes the time to write a comprehensive statement. You might owe him a few beers.

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Firstly, glad to hear that you are OK. Bikes and cars can be repaired or replaced, skin and bones is a darn site more difficult to repair.

To the matter in hand though…

Firstly, did she hit you or did you hit her? And were you undertaking?

If you were undertaking because the lane you were in was moving quicker than hers, it is not a problem. Remember there is no law that states it is illegal to undertake and there is (on the grounds of your account) no evididence of careless driving or worse.

Speed is subjective and not relevant to a case such as this. Who is to say that your speed was too high? if you were going with the flow or you were still within the speed limit, then it matters not.

Remember it is not for you to prove you were travelling at a reasonable speed, it is for the third party to prove it and I don’t see that happening anyway unless she is deemed an expert.

The other point is that if she signalled as she changed lanes, she has breached the Highway Code in that a signal is meant to signify intent and in no way gives her carte blanche to just move over without checking, and in fact her duty of care increases if she was unable to check that there was nothing in her blind spot or approaching from the rear

She (and in this I mean all motorists) should allow a minimum of 4 flashes of the indicator at least before changing position so that other road users are given tome to react accordingly and pick up the signal.

Signalling and moving at the same time becomes a signal of achievement (or look at me I am going for it) and breaches every ethic and rule about signals and the use thereof.

You should (based on your account) not be held liable and the third party is 100% responsible.

I am currently dealing with an identical case on the M25 and liability has just been admitted in favour of the rider, although he did sustain some nasty injuries.

You are right that your insurers probably won’t investigate or do anything, but if they hold you liable it will cost you.

If I have read your account corrently, the other driver drove into you. That cannot be your fault even if you are undertaking…

Hope that helps?

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Yes I wouldn’t be surprised if she does tell an alternate truth, although I wouldn’t like to think I would myself I can even understand if she did. I suspect her car is on finance as it was pretty new ( 18 plate) and that is the prevailing trend so she has a lot at stake I imagine.

Once the matter has been settled I will definitely reach out to the van driver

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10

Firstly, did she hit you or did you hit her? And were you undertaking?

So I would say she hit me - but I did have to think about that one. If I made contact around her front wheel arch she must have driven into me right if it was my side fairing? Not like riding into their tail light

I would say I was filtering rather than undertaking in that I was well and truly in the middle of lanes 2 and 3 and moving faster than vehicles in lanes 2 and 3.

Hopefully this rider gets better - I think the insurance companies ( rightly so) will throw a lot more resources at this to investigate because of the nature of the accident. This was just a low speed nibble really.

I will take my bike in to a garage wednesday morning so they can check my allignments and then the company that would take the case from my insurers will speak to me to discuss how to proceeed

Once again, you’ve all been very helpful as always!

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@slow-ride Filtering and undertaking are deemed the same in law, it matters not whether you were on the nearside or the offside, what you were doing was perfectly legal.

Like I said, speed is immaterial, even more so given that she drove into you.

Duty of care still falls on the driver as she drove into you and she has a legal obligation to ensure it is safe to change position, and the use of indicators makes absolutely no difference for the reasons I mentioned above.

Do not let your insurers hold you liable.

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Thanks, all noted

I will fight especially hard for this because TPFT

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Have you cost up the damage? Unless the bike slid down the road I’d be tempted to just suck up the damage, keep my no claims and avoid the hassle. I know you’ve already reported it so that’s not an option. People will stoop to new lows if they think they can save money or get out of a claim so sometimes it’s just worth avoiding it all together.

Although even if you do agree to do that sometimes they then claim when they realise the cost of repairing their car.

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I would have definitely done that if the other party had admitted fault. In that case I’d have happily t-cut and patched my own bike at my cost and let them deal with their own car and put it down to the cost of commuting if they didn’t have the means to pay me back for the parts I was down.

Unfortunately, she was adament it wasn’t her fault, despite me gently explaining why in the context of the highway code I believed her to be wrong, and so I didn’t feel left with much alternative but to phone my insurance company as I did an on the fly estimate off repairing her car an figured it would be a bit of a stinger for her and she would come after me for it

I also have an excess of 1100, but I am increasingly confident I will see that again… one day… if I persue her for the claim

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I did exactly a few years back that after a low speed “coming together” when a car swung a right, without looking / indicating - knowing that I was filtering past a line of cars approaching/at a junction (me bad) - we agreed in would be a 50:50 insurance job as we were both at fault and that the damage wasn’t worth losing no claims discounts for.

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similar thing happend to me and we agreed at the time to not persue via insurance.
unfortunately people change their minds and she did infact claim on me,
It took almost a year and a half to get the claim dropped and for her insurance to agree that she was at fault,

good luck and glad you are ok

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Since we managed to not fall out, and I also text her to check she got to work okay, I have thought about messaging her again once the dust has settled in that:

  1. if she agrees to admit to her insurance company that it was her fault, I will agree not to persue her for the claim ( I don’t want my excess tied up for an unspecified but certainly long period of time)

  2. I don’t want to lose my ncb

  3. regardless of what happens, she loses hers anyway

  4. she then fixes her car herself

  5. I start off by asking her to pay for the diy fix of my bike ( if it passes the alignment checks at the garage on wednesday). IF she dissents to this, I fix at my own cost

This seems like a good approach?

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Since you’ve notified insurance of accident you will now have to declare it for next five years (some insurers ask less, but most ask 5), regardless of outcome (even if you keep NCB). Many insurers don’t like scenarios like this, where both people drop it and may try to make it into a fault on your behalf. I know I had then trying to persuade me a very old accident of mine was my fault because I hadn’t claimed…

So I wouldn’t now write to her… unless you are 100% sure she is amenable to this, but if I read earlier comments she seems to be hesitant.

I found with mine that people are ok to pay a hundred or so quid but once costs go above that they just defer to insurance… Who has a few hundred quid lying around?

I would now leave insurers to deal with it. You have a witness so that could help. But make sure you push your insurer to push on your behalf so that it doesn’t get recorded as equal liability…

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That’s the problem. New door mirror, they are no longer £29 a pair in Halfords, a mirror for any current car is already in the hundreds. Add in a couple of hundred for the NSF arch repair, add for loan car, add for VAT and it will be over the thousand. She will baulk at that.

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Yeah I had a look at her wing mirror as I tried bodging it to get her on her way, ended up strapping it on with a latex glove she had lying around in her car… I didn’t ask. The wing mirror was electrically adjustable and heated, I did the maths there and then lol

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