Advanced training... where to start?

Off-topic
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TC, taking Kevin out of the conversation for a moment, before you enquire as to where a testee(?) has trained, how often do you guess correctly? Come on, confess 😉 SneakyMcC

There are certain tricks or procedures taught by certain groups and/or instructors or there are certain styles that rub off onto their students which you get to know over time, so some of the time I can work out who has trained them.  You do get caught out occasionaly.

But at the end of the day, it is about what they do on the day, not who has trained them.  I can only judge them on what they do in front of me.

I usually allow them to get 10 minutes into the test, and then at a junction or traffic lights, pull up alongside and say “OK, you have passed, Now ride” and the transformation can be quite remarkable as the candidate relaxes  and starts to enjoy themselves.

It gives me a better idea of their overall riding standard and helps me determine their proper grade.

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[quote] My point of view is what he taught me 8 years ago is still be used today. It is accessible training, spot on for road riders and to the standard of keeping me alive.  Works for me.  All depends on what people are being "tested" for.  If it is to adhere to ROSPA or IAM, then Kevin will not be the man for that as his training IMO eclipses that. for reality riding.    Horses for courses I guess. --- makman [/quote]

Sorry makman I thought you were recommending this Kevin to learn the Advanced System of riding. Do you know how his training differs?

SneakyMcC
He is not AS riding.  But he does teach "survival skills".  It works for me as a city rider.  For track days, I get info from track day instructors.  
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Is the IAM not  a lot more commercialised? with a team of directors at the top etc on the payroll… as well as a newish building to pay for… Your subscription paying for all of this. The guys doing all the ground work such as the observers, examiners basically get their fuel money and everything else given by these people voluntarily. On the other hand ROSPA’ subscription is  used to go towards a free refresher test every 3 years. This used to be the case, not so sure now. I am Sure someone like TC will be able to confirm… 

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Is the IAM not  a lot more commercialised? with a team of directors at the top etc on the payroll... as well as a newish building to pay for.. Your subscription paying for all of this. The guys doing all the ground work such as the observers, examiners basically get their fuel money and everything else given by these people voluntarily. On the other hand ROSPA' subscription is  used to go towards a free refresher test every 3 years. This used to be the case, not so sure now. I am Sure someone like TC will be able to confirm... 
B11rger
I cannot speak for the IAM as such anymore as I have not examined for them for very many years, but from the groups I speak to, they do seem to have a lot of full time employees and as you say, a new (ish) building to pay for.

RoSPA is and always has been a registered charity, and whilst they too have full time employees, the advanced drivers (and riders) side (RoADAR) was taken over when the original League of Safe Drivers which was founded in Finchley, North London in 1955 and was absorbed by RoSPA back in 1980 and was known as the RoSPA League of Safe Drivers before changing its name to the RoSPA Advanced Drivers Association in 1982.  (The RoSPA advanced test predates the IAM test by 2 years by the way). 

Anyway, sorry for digressing.  I do know that with RoSPA it is non profit making simply self financing and everything is put back into RoSPA as an overall body, but then they cover many different areas of safety as well as road safety (anyone remember the Tufty Club which has recently been re-introduced) whereas the IAM are (as far as I am aware but happy to be corrected) commercial and profit making.

So I guess I am answering your original point in a very long winded way (Sorry) in that ROSPA do have overheads, but I would guess not to the same level that the IAM do.

But the point is, as examiners, we certainly do not do it for the money.  IAM pays about the same as RoSPA pay their examiners.  I certainly would not have remained an examiner for nearly 40 years if it was for the money.

My biggest concern for both organisations is that the number of class 1 riders (and any advanced riders for that matter) is diminishing quickly, and even going back to when I was chief examiner, we started exploring the possibility of using Gold grade riders or Gold/diploma holders as examiners.

I think there will be and have to be some significant changes to the way tests are conducted and who conducts test over the next few years.

Bear in mind that many Bikesafe instructors do not hold an advanced quaification, and a number of forces have either stopped doing courses or are on the brink of losing theor accreditation, so it might come down to the likes of the Fire Bike safety riders to be asked to provide examiners, many of who have a minimum of a RoSPA gold and could achieve the IAM masters qualification thereby giving them credibiity.

Sorry for rambling on…

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T.C … I love reading about others peoples experience, especially from the likes of job riders … what’s the article you wrote about, can you point me to it ??

i’m also looking into advanced training having done the ROSPA advanced driving course I wanted to stay with ROSPA for bike training but from what I’ve read i’m looking at a lot of money for the course, (correct me if I’m wrong) and i’m not putting a value on the training you get I just cant afford the course the ROSPA way, so if I join an IAM club?? and train with IAM is it possible to do a cross over/ fill in course for a ROSPA test or is there no point to doing it like this … ive been reading both of the books and their very similar … may I ask your advice on this …(soz for the hijack) cheerz…AL…

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Rospa if you feel good enough you can take the test without being affiliated to a club .

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T.C ... I love reading about others peoples experience, especially from the likes of job riders ... what's the article you wrote about, can you point me to it ??
i'm also looking into advanced training having done the ROSPA advanced driving course I wanted to stay with ROSPA for bike training but from what I've read i'm looking at a lot of money for the course, (correct me if I'm wrong) and i'm not putting a value on the training you get I just cant afford the course the ROSPA way, so if I join an IAM club?? and train with IAM is it possible to do a cross over/ fill in course for a ROSPA test or is there no point to doing it like this .... ive been reading both of the books and their very similar .... may I ask your advice on this ....(soz for the hijack) cheerz....AL.... amphibianalf

Usually it is only the diploma course for instructors that is prohibitive as that is run centrally in Birmingham.

But to do train up to the advanced standard with a local group is usually a fraction of the cost of joining an IAM group.

If you look at the attached for example, and which also happens to be the group that I helped start 30+ years ago, the cost of joining, plus one on one training and other benefoits is £47.00 which also includes your first years annual subscription, + of course you get the opportunity to hear me dribble on about various topics by way of talks every so often as well :wink:

https://www.roadartvg.org.uk/index.php/costs

The test costs £63 or £68 depending on your age

https://www.roadar.org.uk/riders/the-test.htm

But of course there is nothing to say that you have to take a test.  Many are quite happy just to know that their standards have improved.  So, in my opinion, costs are comparable with IAM, and depending on where you live, if you shop around, you may find local smaller groups charging less.

That said, if you go with an IAM group, there is nothing to prevent you doing the training and then doing whatever test you wish.  Now that the IAM have their First and Masters, standards have improved substantially over the past couple of years and so they train to a standard rather than to pass a test.  Doesn’t matter what book you read, there is only one that matters “Roadcraft” which both use as their bible,.

So the bottom line is, train to a standard rather than a badge, and your standards will be appropriate to either organisation.

Shop around for a group that suits your budget, but, RoSPA should be no more expensive than the IAM costs.

I should also add that you can apply for the test without the need to belong to a group.  You apply independently and that is the same for both tests.

On the flip side, in all the tests I have conducted over the years which probably runs to a couple of thousand (including car test as I am a car examiner as well) I do not recall ever having awarded a gold to anyone who has not had training.  I have awarded silver to a few self trained riders, but they were a long way off the gold standard, bearing in mind as you probably know, the benchmark test we ask ourselves before awarding gold is "Would this person acheive a Police class 1 with mininmal instruction? which I guess is also the same question applied to the IAM First and Masters as well.

But then, I have always been quite tight on awarding the gold grade :wink:

Hope that helps?

Oh, and which article are you referring to?  I have done a few?

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Plus both Iam and Rospa work out about the same when i looked into it .
£149 Iam
And £139 for rospa

You then have the added bonus with rospa of a free compulsory retest every three years if you keep your subs up .

It then depends on your observer if club affiliated on if they charge for their fuel etc .

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thanks for the reply … I must be reading something wrong the ROSPA course I looked at was between £700-800 depending what site I looked at … I must confess I do like the idea of having a test pass and cert but its the training that counts …  i’m definitely going to look a bit closer now at training, I read earlier in this thread there’s a taster ride/lesson ?? is this also an evaluation of my riding, this is what I want so I know for myself what I need to do, and then carry on with training.

T.C you mentioned an article you wrote earlier in the thread I don’t know which one… if there’s a link anywhere to anything on advanced riding subjects I’d like to give it a read …

so anyway, i’m in crystal palace and now looking for training, any recommendations  … cheerz…AL…

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thanks for the reply ... I must be reading something wrong the ROSPA course I looked at was between £700-800 depending what site I looked at ... I must confess I do like the idea of having a test pass and cert but its the training that counts ..  i'm definitely going to look a bit closer now at training, I read earlier in this thread there's a taster ride/lesson ?? is this also an evaluation of my riding, this is what I want so I know for myself what I need to do, and then carry on with training.
T.C you mentioned an article you wrote earlier in the thread I don't know which one... if there's a link anywhere to anything on advanced riding subjects I'd like to give it a read ....
so anyway, i'm in crystal palace and now looking for training, any recommendations  .... cheerz....AL...
amphibianalf
I the article you refer to is the element of my first post on the subject.

I am pretty sure that the £700 - £800 you refer to is for thre Motorcycle diploma which is only for qualified advanced riders who are or wish to become qualified advanced instructors and be added to the register of post yest instructors.

This is the course I wrote and delivered along with my fellow examiners, freinds and colleagues Stu Bullock and Russ Todd back in the early 90’s and was also the first such course to get Btec accreditation.  At the moment, don’t even consider that until such time as you have the basics, but as I say, I suspect that is the course that you have been looking at.

Many groups regardless of their affiliation do taster rides/assesments, and in all honesty, recommendation is the best advert.  Many of the London based groups are very good, and you can go out as far as Kent and the KAMG which is based at Brands or Essex Advanced Motorcyle Group (EAMAG) based in Chelmsford, but local groups such as ELAM or LAM are very good as well.

There are various links and articles in respect of advanced riding,  I have done a few for South East Bikers Magazine (You will have to search for them though as they go back a bit) http://www.southeastbiker.co.uk/ there are various articles by various people on the internet, some of it good, some of it crap, some of it just total bullshit

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thanks for taking the time to reply … I just went to the page I was looking at on the ROSPA site its a 4 day course I was looking at, but I thought this was the only way of getting ROSPA training …(https://www.rospa.com/safety-training/on-road/advanced/motorcycle-course/ ). its the same as the driving course I did but for bikes …

I just followed the links you posted earlier, thanks T.C I didn’t know I could get club/social based ROSPA training, now I’ve just got to find somewhere that covers south London …cheerz…AL…

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https://rospasmart.com/

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TC - great contributions, thanks for sharing your thoughts

I did my IAM with ELAM about 7 years ago, bought a Triumph Street Triple R and realised I just wasn’t using it confidently. The IAM training helped immensely, I had a really good instructor. ELAM rides were relatively local and I used to meet my instructor in Enfield. He was a volunteer, just paid a tenner for his petrol each time we did a 1-2-1 ride together and bought him a coffee during our debrief. I did a BikeSafe before that, was a good use of time that

I get the IAM mag and flick through every now and then. I think I remember reading about a woman who has now become an examiner (first woman to have achieved this, hence the article), she was a non class 1 rider

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I think I remember reading about a woman who has now become an examiner (first woman to have achieved this, hence the article), she was a non class 1 rider
benp1
As far as I am aware, the requirements have not yet changed with either organisation to appoint non class 1 examiners.  And we have had some women examiners for quite a while.  Not many I grant, but there have been a few withing both organisations.

Not saying I am right mind you (with regards to the non class 1 examiner), I just have not heard of it, and anything significant like that usually gets shouted down the jungle drum quite quickly, but either way, it has to happen sooner rather than later.

The last non class 1 examiners I was aware of was with the Cardif Bus Company for the PCV advanced test.

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This one?