i’m not entirely sure i am with you on this …
The criminal damage act 1971 does support mens rea = guilty mind
Section 1(1) provides:
A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.
Section 5 of the Act gives examples of actions that would constitute a lawful excuse and thus a defence to criminal damage charges, so i would check that if i were you, in fact it reads “For the purposes of this section it is immaterial whether a belief is justified or not if it is honestly held.”
and remember it’s always a subjective test
having said this i am not condoning criminal damage, i am just playing devil’s advocate, in circumstance where i honestly believed i was protecting my own motorcycle from being thrashed and i instinctively pushed my leg out to distance myself from the car and regain my balance i would not be committing criminal damage if i were to break somebody’s mirror. A civil case may be initiated if you wish but i very much doubt CPS would support a criminal case.
thats what i would have done, BUT i cant say i wouldnt take a wing mirror out cos i have done in teh past, and probably would again if a driver really really pished me off.normally i decide that im more vunrable than them and i just lordy! off and lose them-, th i did have a maniac astar van driver tailgating me and just being a knob,on way to ace a few weeks back, i even sodded off in and out between cars, lost him…nope he turns up in my wing mirrors again… he must have drove like a loony to keep up…in teh end he overtook me dangerously, he was very very close tome, i just let it go…
Nope, the offence of criminal damage can be done with intent or it can be done by being reckless. Of course, if charged it will be up to the courts to decide if you did it or not.Edited to add - In reply to GSR Superdude.Edited further to point out this little word which in Law is very important, - Section 1(1) provides:
A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property OR being reckless whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.
I’m just wondering if some people who can’t hold their temper should actually be allowed to be on a bike ? Not a pop at anyone but maybe a point to discuss ?
Unfortunatly I’m one of those people, can’t help it. It’s just how i am. So I cant have a bike or a car:w00t: I’m a carpenter as well and carry a big hammer and knife in my pouch. maybe I shouldn’t work either, now that I wouldn’t mind;)
note" this all happened in seconds was not pre-meditated"so now it seems that a few of gods"ANGELS" get around on bikes…lol where do they put there wings and halo`s?
i was referring to the intent, and yes of course recklessness can play a part.
In fact the concept of ‘intent’ is often enough to fulfill the requirement of mens rea and recklessness is often easier to prove by the attendant circumstances. In offences of criminal damage the situation is slightly different. it is in this context that the concept of ‘objective’ recklessness caused the most probs for the Courts.
Am i boring you?!?!
Difficulties of proof arise where the defendant failed to consider an ‘obvious’ risk and then went on to damage property (v Caldwell)
In the example of this thread/discussion, it would be very difficult to prove mens rea simply because he had not thought the matter through, but can the prosecutor show that the relevant risk would have been apparent to reasonable person? if that’s the case it is not necessary to show that the defendant realised that risk. Does it make sense?
On the other hand if the defendant did in fact see the risk then clearly this would strengthen the prosecutor’s case.
There is a ‘culture’ of aggressive behaviour towards bikes amongst some drivers. I remember having a conversation with a colleague of mine when I first started commuting on the scooter 3 years ago. He couldn’t wait to tell me about all the times he had purposely cut up or spooked scooter riders for sport. He sort of tailed off when I told him that I’d bought a scooter and wasn’t too impressed with his bragging. From our conversation it was clear that he had no concept of the danger he was putting bikers in by his behaviour. To be fair to him, from that point on he became a reformed character and I really think it was because up to that point he just hadn’t thought that what he was doing was particularly dangerous.
Bear in mind that there are large sections of the population who just don’t ride and none of their friends or peer group ride. They have no concept of what it’s like to feel physically threatened by another vehicle. Some of these people are a few cards short of a full deck and will try to take you out for fun. Breaking their wing mirror or breaking their nose won’t make a blind bit of difference to their behaviour IMO.
One thing which I feel might act as some sort of deterent is to hang back, let the individual go ahead and decide to take a diversion that goes the same way as he’s going. When he reaches his destination (let’s face it most of these idiots only know the 5 streets round their ‘manor’ so they won’t be going far) make a mental note of where he lives/works/hangs out and his reg. number. Preferably do it in a way that he hasn’t noticed your presence but if he does never mind it might give him something to think about. If nothing else you’ll have the security of knowing that if your paths cross again you’ll know where he lives (to report him of course).
bloody good post fella! well said, specially the last bit, tho it isnt alwasy possilbe, but getting the reg no. is very important, through ways and means i would/could find out where the plank lives…
Point taken, you just can’t have a good old fistycuffs anymore, everyone wants to stab you. I had a to do with some smart office bloke in a suite once and he eneded up stabbing me in the face, but thats another story:w00t:You should of given him a chinese burn, that would of told him:w00t:
Tried that, when I had my rs125, but it was taxi and the git kept stoping. This is true, then when I was out of juice I gave up. So I achieved nothing. Why I thought i’d follow a taxi I don’t know, probably thought I’d freak him out a bit but prob ended up given him a laugh:w00t:
I have had this too some people think its funny and hard untill the police get involved then there attitude changes all you need to do is take there plate and report them or if you can video them on the mobile whilst there driving that can get them in some serious trouble its a better way to get your own back!!
am sure i never once said that i had it off by leaning on it. some people are loosing sight of what happened. he went at me once. i swore! he went at me again leg went out . made contact with mirror. 50/50 accidental/ on purpose!.sorry mate but i ride a brand new trumpet. accordin to some their not too reliable at the best of times. let alone with a polo and me mangled in it. like said b4 this happened in seconds . no pre-meditation or intent to make us bikers look bad. self defence/ self protection/ self/bike presevation. call it what you may!! i know your not judgin. you cant , no-one can they wernt there.
I must of meet this guys sister on my way home today .
I pulled away from traffic lights, and meet up with the traffic moving slowly in front of me, only to have some women in a BMW 5 series decide to bully me out of the way, pushing me over to the white line, while she tailgated the car in front .
I dropped back to come in line with her side window, ( Unaware the driver was female untill this time ), and procedded to ask what the feck she was up to ?
The bloke sitting in the front passenger seat made himself busy, looking out of his side window, as if nothing was happening, she kept her gaze infront, and refused to make any comment, or eye contact.
This left me totally bemused as to what the hell was her problem, and with the traffic moving along , i decided to leave her with a few choice words, and move myself a car ahead and keep to the speed limit, or maybe just a touch below for the next few miles Needless to say, this didnt impress her in her rush to get where ever she was heading, but being unable to over take, she had to be patient, and adhere to the speed limit.
I must admitt, i felt the urge to let lose with a kick to bodywork of the car, but common sense got the better of me, and TBH, i got much more satisfaction with my course of action i took
Sorry guys, but I can’t disagree more with the wing mirror thing. It may feel clever at the time, but imagine how that prick is gonna treat the next biker he passes… and purely because you lost your temper.
As we go through this every time someone posts this bit of self-confession you could almost say “When are the bikers gonna learn?”
Sorry but you make more trouble by sinking to his level that you solve!
With me it’s not about feeling clever, that don’t come into it. If someone puts my life on the line, i’m not gonna sit back and do nothing. If they hit me I could die, It’s all very well saying get his number, get the police involved but as I said in a last post they probably wouldn’t do nothing or it would get thrown out of court for lack of evidence. Like chunkymonkey said about that program the other night with the bloke in the audi. The police had him on film forcing the bikes across the road, and when he go out first he said it was because they were taking to long pulling out of a junction, then it changed to some other crap then he said the bikes overtook him and called him a wker ( why they would do that for no reason I don’t know, thats if they did do it). As soon as he said that the copper changed his tune and said basically shake hands or i’ll nick the both of you. Now they had the car driver on film driving like a tt and not seen the bikes do anything wrong and they let him go, he was blatently thretening them with his fecking huge car, all on film.He should of had the book thrown at him. So basically if some driver attemps to have you off your bike and you “get his number” and “report him” all he’s got to say is you called him a wker and he’ll get away with it or your in the st aswell. oh I’m not saying anyone should wreck the car, or take a mirror off, you all deal with it in your own way. I’m just saying, I think the police is a waste of time with issues like this:)
Needless to say, this didnt impress her in her rush to get where ever she was heading, but being unable to over take, she had to be patient, and adhere to the speed limit.