The intruder killed in Manchester

That’s not true at all. A single arrest is enough to disqualify you from a large number of jobs thanks to the ECRB system. It shows up on all ECRB checks for the next several years.

Also, simply being arrested means that the police hold your fingerprints and DNA forever (anonymized after I think 6 or 7 years). That’s not the right way to treat innocent people.

I am ? It’s good to know that someone knows what’s going through my mind! It’s a pity that you’re only completely wrong, and my anger is drawn from multiple other similar cases that have already concluded.

The truth is that nobody knows about this case yet. However, in the last 2 - 3 months, at least 4 other people have been arrested under incredibly similar conditions and have ALL been released without charges. In 2 cases, they were found not to have even participated in the act, and in the other 2 cases they were found to have acted completely lawfully. So 4 innocent people were thrown in a cage on the most vulnerable day of their lives.

Last I checked, we worked on the premise of innocent until (or is it unless?) proven guilty. So yeah, I believe that EVERYONE has the right to remain free from arrest until such time as there is evidence that they have committed a crime.

But how effectively can they assess the risk of flight. They might be dealing with a home-owner who took action or a murderer. The Police have to arrest, because they don’t know who or what they are dealing with!! I am amazed that anyone would think the Police shouldn’t arrest an individual who has taken the life of another.
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We can assess it the same way every other civilised country does. And if it’s really a concern, confiscate their passport.

I’m amazed that you think it’s OK to cage innocent people on the worst day of their lives.

OMG…Whatever…

:doze:

i dont actually see what wrong with that, if you are staying on the correct side of the law, what can the police do with your fingerprints?

Exactly! If you’ve got nothing to hide, why shouldn’t your DNA and fingerprints be on a database? The only people who are inconvenienced by the system are those who choose to commit crimes and leave their DNA and fingerprints! :satisfied:

Personally, I think everybody should have fingerprints and DNA taken and put on the national database. What harm does it do?

As long as you don’t see anything wrong with that, I guess we can ignore what the realms of privacy experts have said on the subject.

I also like how you assume that it’s just the police that will have access to that data, given government’s around the world enthusiasm for changing the scope of what is done with collected data over time.

Today you’re arrested for defending your life. In 10 years time, you can no longer get life insurance because your DNA shows markers that mean you are likely to die of a debilitating disease by the time you’re 60.

This is far too close to the “If you’ve got nothing to hide, you’ve got nothing to fear” line that is trotted out all too often on the way to a fascist state.

You first then. There is a provision in place for you to go to your local police station and request that this be added to the database. Please let us know when you’ve done so.

You might want to print some of these out to read while you’re waiting though…

http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/dna_fingerprinting.htm
http://academic.udayton.edu/health/05bioethics/00rooker.htm
http://www.geneticsandsociety.org/article.php?id=4441
http://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/freedom/canadna.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/09/opinion/la-oe-obasogie9-2010apr09
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2004/sep/03uk-dna-database.htm
http://www.genewatch.org/sub-539478

I’ll leave you with probably the most succinct comment from that list:

I don’t know the details, but if it is cut and dry, then good riddance to the burglar. If someone breaks into your house you have no idea what their intentions are, it is a total intrusion to your security and a threat on your person.

arrrghhhhh this makes me mad…poor guy and his family man…I am glad the robbing mutha fkr got his comeuppance…woulda gone straight outside and cut up the flowers with the same knife i bored into his chest…and waved it about for the papps to get a good photo.

This country is so fucked…to even contemplate prosecuting someone for defending their family…it sickens me.

At last someone who thinks along the lines i do…his house… his belongings… so therefore the deceased had no right whatsoever to be in there without an invite…i believe we should all have the right to protect ours and our own and if some idiot takes it upon himself to break in with a weapon expect to leave in a bodybag.

Yes because no Government has ever used information held about people in a way which was bad…lucky that isn’t it :stuck_out_tongue:

+1 :angry:

Already on there mate. Every Police officer has his/her fingerprints and DNA taken so that we can be discounted from crimescenes we have been on etc… :wink:

Seriously though, if you believe the majority of the rubbish that is spouted by some of these internet people then fair enough. However, if you speak to anybody who has had their fingerprints and DNA taken as part of being arrested, they will tell you that you are told there and then that they will be used for a speculative search (crimes that have already happened) and will be held on the system in order to assist future investigations. You are also told that they are not shared with any other organisation! :wink:

Come on then Kaos, enlighten us as to what monstrous things they will do with your fingerprints and DNA… :doze:

The DNA database is a good thing, there have been some really nasty bastards caught due to it. One was a serial rapist in Birmingham whom they never caught until he was processed years later for drink driving charge. As he was prosecuted it came to light that his DNA was the DNA left at the crime scenes and he fitted the descriptions to the letter.

Sell them to insurance companies, and other corporations, who may then decide whether to insure you on the bike, based on the likelyhood, based on a DNA profile, of you suffering a stroke, or heart attack or any number of other ailments that may effect your ability to drive, or may even decide whether to hire you or not based on this profiling, who wants to hire someone who will be off sick with a disease, as compared to someone who is not.

Never seen Gattaca I am assuming?

Do not even need these idiots to sell them…they could just leave all the information on a harddrive at a train station…lord knows that has never happened!!

Once the information is collected and spread about, it will be nearly impossible to reclaim or contain it.

Ask Ryan Gigs about how hard it is to stop the spread of information once it is out there.

‘These internet people’ that I linked to are among some of the premier commentators and experts in their field. Most of the links I quoted include multiple peer-reviewed academic papers. Respected academics and commentators with nothing to gain or lose
Fraudsters and criminals who often go on to work on the boards of the very people who provide the systems that they were calling for
The same people who fought for long term retentions of DNA information of innocent people at the European Courtwent on to spend taxpayer money on a court case to fight to keep their expense fiddling hidden (Jacqui Smith et al.) Later, when it call became public it turned out that the person fighting for the government to retain information that is widely considered to be the most private aspect of a human being fought for the right to continue to defraud the public! . Now tell me, why should I believe that anything such a dodgy person was doing was in my best interests?

ROTFL really !? You really believe that ? Just remind me again how many police staff were cited for improper use of their computer access powers in the last 3 years, in many cases to get information people they found attractive or other reasons. It’s more than 100 nationwide, people in authority abusing their position and our trust to access this supposedly secure information. I think I’ll pass on trusting authority until it shows it can be trusted!

EDIT - bugger, I was wrong on my last point. It was actually over 900 police staff disciplined for this, resulting in 243 police staff being successfully convicted of crimes relating to this topic. For violating our trust and our privacy. But we can trust you (not you personally, but you as a whole) with our most private information, right ?!

http://www.simplysecurity.com/2011/08/04/more-than-900-uk-police-officers-violated-data-protection-act/

It happens today. The NHS refuses lifesaving treatment because it costs too much. There have been cancer cases, diabetes and blindness cases where they could have saved someone, but based on a cost benefit analysis they chose not to.

DNA gives them the ability to go further. It gives them the ability to predict lifespan and susceptibility to certain conditions. Now, if the NHS knows that you’re likely to have a heart attack within 10 years, based on their previous form, they’ll happily refuse you a hip replacement - same cost benefit analysis.

I honestly see where people who trust the government to do right are coming from. Who doesn’t want to live in a world where we can be sure the people who control most aspects of our lives have our best interests at heart?

But the sad truth is that they often don’t. Power lusts for more power. Many evil things in history started out with someone wanting to make it easier to catch a ‘bad element’ or stop a ‘dodgy sort’ and then they went from there. Many laws started out as a way to help the police or make their job easier, but were perverted from there and abused. History teaches us this.

Would you have wanted Adolf Hitler to have your child’s DNA and the ability to determine the things that we can from DNA today? Racial history, health prediction, physical attributes?

Now, do you think if Germany started DNA collection in 1920 that was only going to be used for a speculative search (crimes that have already happened) and will be held on the system in order to assist future investigations , the new government that went a long way to destroying the world wouldn’t have got their hands on it when they came to power? Do you want that for your children and their grandchildren ?

When you allow a law to pass or give the government something, you’re not just giving it to the current government - you’re giving it to them and everyone that comes after them. Even if you do trust the guys passing the law, can you be sure that you can trust the ones who come after them? And the ones who come after them ?

A lot of laws passed in Germany in the 1930s looked to be a great idea, but they paved the way for horror. Laws passed in Zimbabwe in the last 10 years destroyed their economy and their food supply chain. Laws passed in England have seen the police pay out hundreds of thousands of pounds in compensation to people who’s rights they abused (and a few dodgy cases who gamed the system).

Come on then Kaos, enlighten us as to what monstrous things they will do with your fingerprints and DNA… :doze:
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Sell them to insurance companies, and other corporations, who may then decide whether to insure you on the bike, based on the likelyhood, based on a DNA profile, of you suffering a stroke, or heart attack or any number of other ailments that may effect your ability to drive, or may even decide whether to hire you or not based on this profiling, who wants to hire someone who will be off sick with a disease, as compared to someone who is not.

Never seen Gattaca I am assuming?
Do not even need these idiots to sell them…they could just leave all the information on a harddrive at a train station…lord knows that has never happened!!

Once the information is collected and spread about, it will be nearly impossible to reclaim or contain it.

Ask Ryan Gigs about how hard it is to stop the spread of information once it is out there.
[/quote]

Actually I have seen Gattaca. Very good movie, and pure science fiction! I’ve also seen a movie that has been re-made in recent years, called Planet of the Apes. Does this mean we should start locking up all the chimps and gorrillas? :blink::satisfied:

Yes, it could be left on a train, if it was something that was generally carried around in a briefcase/laptop, however considering the fact that the database is kept in a secure building that’s not very likely.

As for the government selling the information, there are laws against it! So they would be breaking the law! :doze: :wink:

So, it looks like you’re building your entire argument on what ifs… :satisfied:

As it stands there are a lot of criminals getting caught out by this database, and a lot of historic crimes being solved! Thankfully there were quite a few detectives in the last half century that believed in forensic advancement enough to actually keep the evidence archived until these procedures could be used. :slight_smile: