Following your own line of thinking, where did all those single cell organisms come from that evolutionists say we evolved from? Where did all the elements originate from that brought about the supposed Big Bang?
On the one hand we have the idea that everything was created by God, on the other it came from… well, nothing I suppose… It is easier for me to believe the universe and everything in it was designed and has a purpose than to believe it just happened and came out of nothing.
However, you are quite right that religion has been the cause of a lot of war, strife, tension, etc. But I would point out that back in the 1930’s a man took evolution quite literally and decided to wipe out anyone he decided was too weak. We are constantly reminded of these atrocities in all the TV programs about world war 2. Let’s also not forget the millions wiped out by Stalin before that. He was also an evolutionist if memory serves me correctly. And he certainly wasn’t religious by any means. I reckon if you were to tally up the numbers over the last 100 years, you may find that pro-evolutionary atheists have been responsible for more death and destruction than any religiously motivated events.
Good point - atheistic philosophers like Nietzsche who coined the phrase ‘God is dead’ influenced Nazi thinking which took the dictum ‘God is dead’ to mean ‘everything is permitted’ - e.g. man is not constrained by sacred moral laws or duties to his fellow man as outlined in religion (but often ignored by the religious) but is permitted to make up morality and law as he see fit - the Nazis used this concept of amoral freedom (the triumph of the will) to justify the extermination of those they deemed inferior.
evolution is about natural selection, not for man to select, as in breeding dogs (or hollywood stars), even if hitler or stalin are darwinists, they got them wrong. hitler was a more darwinist in social and racial sense, but stalin was definately not, Stalinism is not about a superior race or species, it is about an advanded class, an elite political group leading the mass
stalinism is not all bad, at least they would have lined those slippery bankers before a shooting squad, instead of questioning those lying b**kers, as it is now doing in westminster.
Wether you believe in religion or evolution… essentially we are all the same underneath. Milgram 1968 showed this there his experiments with electric shocks.
Despite what we believe and where we come from… this is not justification for volience and death. There is nothing worng with question your existence… but there is no actually evidence or a finally conclusion…:hehe:
But that isn’t ‘my line of thinking’ I simply am pointing out the illogicality of creation stories, if we required a creator then it only follows that a creator created him too ad infinitum which seems rather flawed logic when you think about it.
God rather exists in the collective dream consciousness as a means of making palatable the least desirable aspects of life, most specifically death and disease.
To believe in God is before anything else an expression of existential angst, religion of course eminates from the pre-enlightenment era where all kinds of half baked ideas were banded about in the absence of sound scientific or philosophical reasoning.
It provides many delusional discourses and rigid social rules but ultimately cannot prove anything about ‘God’ or the nature of godliness…That’s why I take the agnostic line.
If ‘God’ (?) did exist how could I possibly know or understand anything of him? Am I to believe in something I cannot ascertain?
Hitler, of course, although not coming across as the stereotypical Christian did believe he had ‘God’ on his side.
‘God’ is often used to justify all manner of tyranny and genocide, whether in Islamic terrorism or simply in forming punitive Christian social taboos - in effect God and religion more generally is used as a means to create and maintain social power and order - and always has been.
So personally I don’t have this overarching belief in the self-righteousness of religious fanatics, to me they’re the antithesis of what liberal society is about.
Religion today is unnecessary, it simply presents pre-enlightenment propaganda in reality.
It’s rather the case that the Nazis grossly misinterpreted and misused Nietzsche’s work to justify their own cause, not that there was anything in Nietzsche which was complicit with the third reich’s agenda.
Nietzsche was concerned with the decline of religion, a moral taboo system, and whether a new abstract morality could be created free from the taboo’s created by christian history.
He most certainly was not as you put it an advocate of ‘amoral freedom’, merely that he noticed the great chasm created by modern secular society and the religious moral indoctrination of the past.
His notion of the triumph of the will was concerned with the primacy of human will, human agency and the ability for individuals to define themselves and their own lives without reference to the taboos and social norms created by religious propaganda.
It was not the suggestion that blood letting and mass genocide were perfectly fine.
I agree - Nietzche was a good bloke - he wasn’t anti-Jewish and didn’t advocate genocide as you say - yep - his philosophy was distorted and mis-represented by the national socialists.
the context of Niezche’s “god is dead” quote is interesting - in his “dream”, the man (himself) is running around in a panic shouting “i seek God”. He abviously thinks there is something else to this world, not just the physical, not just what science can explain. Also, i think you’ll find many scientists believe darwin’s theory to be an inadequate explanation of the universe, as it boils down to everything just appearing, and not only that, but by a colossal explosion. In my experience, explosions are generally destructive and tend not to bring into existence entire universes. I myself am a Christian as you may pick up:)
I see your point - I’m totally prepared to accept the idea of a God or ‘prime mover’ that could have brought the universe about in the first place - but I’m with Darwin on evolution and the idea that life took millions of years to develop.
Physics is already proving that in the Universe bizarre phenomena (to us) that are completely outside our comprehension are theoretically possible - so why not an ultimate creator?
I was starting to think I may be the only one here…
To all, I think it’s great that we can debate these issues like this and get people thinking. It will be a sad day when we just accept something, be it a belief or an idea, without thinking it through and making an informed decision (based on the facts, of course…;)).
“Physics is already proving that in the Universe bizarre phenomena (to us) that are completely outside our comprehension are theoretically possible - so why not an ultimate creator?”
Okay so let’s assume for the sake of argument the extremely remote possibility that there is a ‘bizarre phenomena’ that is thoeretically identifiable as a singular ‘ultimate creator’. Let’s call it God. Let’s also assume by another leap of faith that this God has the ability shape and mould every fibre of the universe after it was created. That it has had a hand in the entire evolution of this planet and every planet in the universe, this earth and all the millions of other earth-like places out there. That it has set the evolutionary ball rolling and then nudged it in particular directions. On this planet it has set our sun to just the right temperature to allow ‘life’. It has created not just on a grand scale but purposely and specifically on a microcosmic scale. It has produced creatures that via millenia of development have become sentient beings. Human beings, with the ability and desire to consider their own origins and attribute meaning to them. So what if there is a God? Would proof of the existence of a prime creator validate worship of that phenomena? We all know our personal ‘creators’- our parents do exist (or existed) but beyond the Freudian does this indicate that we should worship them? What interest would the ‘creator of everything’ have in being worshipped by its creation…how would it enrich its creation? The answer on the balance of history is clearly that it would not. Continuiing the parenting analogy to be worshipped by your progeny would be a very bad thing. It would ultimately deny the very point of their own creation…which is to perpetuate existence itself beyond your personal departure from sentient existence…Of course we can all make up our own minds but whether we came from something or from nothing it’s immaterial as there is no more reason to worship something than there is to worship nothing…hope that clears it up:)
Firstly, if there is a God who created incredibly complex and intricate universe in which we live - just think of the trillions of stars and immense galaxies, right down to the millions of minute atoms which can fit into this . (full stop), then yes, I think it would merit admiration, praise and worship.
Secondly, God does indeed have an interest and desire to be worshipped by his creation, not because he needs it, as he is self-sufficient, but because as the Bible teaches, he created the universe, including human beings for his good pleasure and enjoyment, and that when we worship him, we fulfil our purpose as human beings. How is worshipping God enriching? It’s a personal experience, that you will know when you trust and believe in him. For me personally, I have a purpose in life, I have peace in life, and also in death. I have a joy which doesn’t rely on situations in this world or what possessions I have or don’t have, and hoipefully my life is a blessing to the people around me.
yes it was and the more people research the topic of religion the more they have to beleive, there are some mighty big holes in the science…and some of them seem to point to a divine, or similar intervention, ala big bang, immediate espancsion faster than the speed of light, but we cant make anything travel faster thant the speed of light can we…or can we…? hmm religion is a fantastic thing to debate, but faith is another thing altogether…and can make for some crazy situations…
You’ve cracked it lessismore! I’ve emailed the above to the Vatican/Mecca telling them the games up and they can shut up shop! :DI can imagine the idea of an ultimate creator completely outside of our comprehension - by it’s nature it would be so far removed in space and time from us as to be unknowable - however I can’t extrapolate from this that there is a God who has my and everyone elses personal interests at heart, if that is true then why is life such a pile of sh1t for so many people with the only guarantee being ageing if you’re lucky and death as an absolute certainty? And I know all the religious metaphorical arguments for the human condition e.g. the fall from grace etc - but I’m sorry - that ain’t good enough - if I was the creator :w00t: I’d make damn sure that all of you were having a damn good time - I wouldn’t turn life into a viscious assault course (as this God seems to have done) with death as the prize - and don’t tell me about heaven - i’ll believe it when I see it - and then i’ll say thankyou - but why did I have to go through that horror show you call planet earth to get here?Religion obviously has had a profound impact on human affairs as an organiser of societies, inspiration for great works of art and literature and finally providing comfort for people in a cold indifferent universe - that should not be laughed at or belittled - however I have to remain true to my own rationality and discount the idea of God as depicted in the Bible, Koran or Torah.- I take an existentialist view on life - life is absurd and meaningless and the planet/universe that I reside in is completely indifferent to my and the fate of the human race - bleak isn’t it? But that is the only conclusion that I can come to based on my own rationale/logic + the study of the last few thousand recorded years of human history, and what happens in front of my eyes/on the television news every day.
Except that is not our purpose as human beings. That is your own chosen purpose. I respect your personal choices (they are yours to make) but we are not born requiring worship to fulfil our purpose as human beings any more than we are born requiring motorbikes (sacrilege I know…:)). I am glad that you feel happy and I don’t doubt that you personally believe you feel happier after your personal experience than you did, say, on the day you were born, and I can’t begrudge you that. Equally, how can anyone begrudge anyone elses understanding of their own purpose or even their lack of it. It is understandable and on the surface commendable for you to wish that others could experience your personal happiness. After all, happiness, joie de vivre is a tool for the advancement of creation. The proliferation of happiness is argueably a purpose in its own right so in that respect there can be no issue with your intent. If we can respect with humility that we personally have no monopoly on the understanding of happiness or on its means of distribution we would indeed be enlightened and would certainly ‘bless’ those around us with our acknowledgement of their own free will separate from our own or, for that matter, that of an imagined creator.
“- I take an existentialist view on life - life is absurd and meaningless and the planet/universe that I reside in is completely indifferent to my and the fate of the human race - bleak isn’t it? But that is the only conclusion that I can come to based on my own rationale/logic + the study of the last few thousand recorded years of human history, and what happens in front of my eyes/on the television news every day.”
Well i’m genuinly sorry to hear that this is your conclusion andf outlook on life, however, Jesus said “I have come that they may have life and have it to the full” (John 10:10). Worth a looking surely?
I’m not a scientist, and my scientific knowledge is not that good… But one thing I do know (and I’m sure any self-respecting scientist will acknowledge) is that supposed evolutionary facts are anything but that. It’s all theory. A lot of theory spoken of and over time these theories have magically turned to fact without any scientific basis.
Science is based upon observation. Evolution as described by Darwin and his followers today is not observable and will only ever be theory. Both Creationism and Evolutionism are based on assumptions, neither of which can be proven scientifically. Depending on which assumption you choose to follow will determine the outcome of the analysis of the evidence presented. Keep in mind that creation scientists and evolution scientists work from the same evidence and data. How that data is interpreted is down to whether you believe the earth began with a big bang and everything evolved from that, or whether you believe it began with a creator.
As for me I choose to base my faith not on evolution, but in a God who created the universe and everything in it. Can i prove it? No I can’t. Just like you can’t prove evolution.
No but we can at the very least deduce that long before we were on the planet dinosaurs were king, and that clearly we are the latest step in the development of our species to become Homo Sapiens.
The bones tell their own stories.
