ummm…if I say I’m being entirely rational but all the evidence suggests that I am not does this make me entirely rational? IMO it doesn’t! If I say I am a carrot when all the evidence suggests that I’m not does this make me a carrot? The meaning of any word is that which it is generally accepted to be not what an individual thinks it is. The word ‘rational’ is a word like any other and it is defined by it’s generally accepted meaning which in this case is ‘showing clear thought or reason’. 
I could put you right on your examples too but I’ve got to get back to work!:P;)
I think this is the key reason more people don’t kill themselves - they think of the impact on those left behind and decide they can’t put their loved ones through that trauma.
“Hell is other people”, to quote Jean-Paul Sartre, but other people can save your life…
having been one of those left behind i know how it feels, i myself have been close to the edge a few times, only thinking of those i leave behind stops me.
Well, anywhere you can go and live a closeted little enclosure and not have to learn anything about the native culture or language where the only encounter you have with that native culture is a tired old stereotype populated with straw hats and the occasional ‘grassy arse!’ or something like that would be classed as insane IMO! 
Sorry for the hi-jack/ rant (hi-rant, ran-jack).
On topic (devil’s advocate):
What about those without the strength of mind? Are they rational?
I agree.
Does someone only act irrationally by the action of suicide or when contemplating it?
I reckon that those who are truly unbalanced possibly don’t have the strength or ability to go through with suicide, never mind think it through fully.
It’s more likely an act of control, as a result of being totally out of control (as in the case of the father whom it seems killed his family, burnt his house and himself just recently); when in control of his life, his business, his environment in a successful way, all was good - but when he no longer saw the possibility of control he used his final act of ‘control’ to manage the end of it all. Very sad indeed.
How many people have the strength to actually commit the act of suicide, it takes a huge amount of courage.
Yet, how many people have the strength to deal with a life that no longer seems to have hope, scope, opportunity? It can be an extremely scarey and lonely place. When we are in a place of extreme fear of whatever it is we think is the ‘worst’ situation for us, we’re likely to be less scared of the prospect of death.
My heart goes out to all those out there who are alone with their fears, their worries and their lack of hope and desire to live life to its fullest; to take opportunities, to share, to love, to enjoy the joys that life brings, to make life the best it can be for them.
It’s that horrible limbo in between that sends you nuts…feeling like there’s nothing to gain by sticking around, except more pain, yet being petrified that death will hurt. It doesn’t actually feel like courage sitting between each state. It’s just deciding which line to cross to get out of the in between.
In a way, it’s like quitting smoking. You either do it, or you don’t. You can spend years wanting to, and the fear stops you from actually doing it. You think it’s gonna hurt/be horrible. But if you unreservedly decide to quit, with no want of another cigarette, you quit. It’s the only way. You can’t try to quit. You just quit.
In both cases, I believe the dangerous time is when there is no emotion left. Applicable to both situations. When the emotions go, which ever you choose, that path will be taken no matter what.
It’s that horrible limbo in between that sends you nuts…feeling like there’s nothing to gain by sticking around, except more pain, yet being petrified that death will hurt. It doesn’t actually feel like courage sitting between each state. It’s just deciding which line to cross to get out of the in between.
In a way, it’s like quitting smoking. You either do it, or you don’t. You can spend years wanting to, and the fear stops you from actually doing it. You think it’s gonna hurt/be horrible. But if you unreservedly decide to quit, with no want of another cigarette, you quit. It’s the only way. You can’t try to quit. You just quit.
In both cases, I believe the dangerous time is when there is no emotion left. Applicable to both situations. When the emotions go, which ever you choose, that path will be taken no matter what.
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mole…excellent post, it seems you may have been reading my mind, thats how i feel at times.
tho i’m getting better.
you too snow nat good post.
If i could never again do the things i enjoy then i would rather be 6feet under. Each to there own but i dont see life worth living if i cant actualy live it.
The worst day of my life by far was having to tell my children, then aged 18, 16, 8 and 6, that they wouldn’t see their dad again. I told the older ones first, then the three of us went into the school and I had to do it all over again when I told the little ones. I wouldn’t wish that day on anyone.That was only weeks before the older two were due to take their GCSEs and A levels. Courage? Cowardice? I wasn’t inside his head so cannot say. But without doubt it was astoundingly selfish.
There were ways out for him. Lots of people around him were trying to help him but he knew better (as he always had, in his opinion). He decided not to listen to any of the advice he was given and not to take any of the help he’d been offered. I don’t think I will ever forgive him for doing that to his kids. I had been in a very dark place myself just a few months earlier, and even though I had been thinking “they’d be better off without me” I couldn’t do it to them and fought my way out of that dark pit that is depression, firstly by relinquishing control and accepting help. He was too arrogant to accept that he was anything less than perfect.Perhaps the intransigent are the ones who succumb to suicide. Those who can’t bend, break.
Some fantastic thoughtful responses folks - I find it really reassuring that the intelligence levels around this place are so high. As has been pointed out, there are a myriad of reasons causing someone to decide to end their life - from mental disturbance (resulting from physical causes - chemical imbalance in the brain etc.), to voluntary euthanasia in the case of terminal disease.
Mental health has been a taboo subject for years - and this is one of the reasons (I think) that some people do not talk about their feelings (for fear of ridicule etc). However if your knee is hurting badly you mention it to your friends and family and go to the doctor and get it checked out. It should be the same if your mind is hurting - things are getting better - but our cultural attitudes to this subject need to change - people should not have to fear losing their friends, job etc if they are experiencing mental anguish. Instead they should feel comfortable about getting help, support and understanding - there are already moves to increase the number of cognitive beahvioural therapists in the NHS - so this issue is getting recognised.
I think that many suicides arise from the feeling of isolation engendered by our cultural fear of the mentally ill.
We shouldn’t forget that some of the greatest artists and intellectuals suffered from mental illness - it was their different way of looking at the world (caused by depression etc) that supplied them with valuable and original insights into life/the human condition.
There are some things that you just can’t get out of on your own, and serious depression is one of them. The difficulty is often in recognising that things have got bad enough that you need help (I mean inside your head, more than to do with circumstances outside yourself), and then accepting help when it’s offered. Those who commit suicide often don’t even get to the stage of recognising that things are bad, as they’ve rationalised their actions and make the clear, logical, informed decision that the best thing to do is to kill themselves.
From personal experience I know that when you’re at the bottom of that black pit you just don’t realise how far down you are.
Providing that you’re not suicidally depressed in the first place, you’d be surprised at how strong the will to live is. I used to hold exactly the same opinion, but when I found myself in precisely that position, the instinct was to put up a hell of a fight to get a life back. Even through very dark places, that instinct has held. It’s not universally so, but if you’re a biker I think it’s more likely.
I agree totally. I had rough experiences growing up which combined to put me into a psychological tail spin throughout my adolescence and early twenties. I only really started to pick the pieces up in my mid to late twenties (when I started to develop a more mature self-awareness). Consequently I’m quite sensitive to how peoples circumstances can affect their mood and outlook. I can usually spot when people are going through a hard time these days - so if they are rude negative or aggressive I find it less easy to write them off as a c*nt than I used to!
Apparently 1 in 4 of us is likely to experience psychologial problems in our lifetime (I think this figure is conservative). The better educated we are as a culture on this subject the more likely people will be able to admit to needing help, and the better equipped we as family members, colleagues and medical practitioners will be to identify the problem and offer help.
At the end of the day though - it is down to the individual - if someone wants to destroy themselves - quickly through suicide - or slowly and painfully through alcoholism or drug addiction - there is nothing that anyone can do about it - short of locking them up (I know this from personal experience - my own father isn’t around today because of alcoholism).
Very true. Biking does attract (and then reinforces) a certain kind of spirit.
Good post Mole
Firstly, I don’t think thinking, attempting, or committing suicide necessarily means a person is mentally ill, or irrational. Sometimes, yes, but not always. There are as many reasons for committing suicide as there are people. People are complex. I do really feel for those who have lost loved ones through suicide – I can’t imagine how devastating that must be.
We’ve taken happiness to be the norm, so anything outside of that is considered abnormal. Whereas life can be extremely tough for many people. When someone’s circumstances are too extreme for them to cope with, or they cannot see a way forward out of their situation, then, for them, suicide can become a rational option to ending the pain.
Especially in the West, we’ve lost belief in God, in big ideologies, even families are dispirit and scattered, so people are often isolated. People are often down on the Chinese, but living in rural China made me aware of how strong the community was, how people clubbed together to help complete strangers in the town get hospital treatment and to help out when someone was experiencing difficulties. So friends and strong relationships can be key in helping someone see things from a different perspective. A friend of my sisters, a farmer, committed suicide and I am convinced that if he had not had access to a gun and was not working on his own every single day, it might have been avoided.
Personally I went through a bad time about six months ago, drove up the M1 in a real state – and called my best friend. She and her partner took me in for the weekend, looked after me and were absolutely non judgemental and brilliant. I will always remember what she did for me and I hope that I can do the same for someone else who has hit rock bottom.
Intellectually we can debate the reasons for suicide and the ‘cures’, but in that situation, when someone is at the edge, what they need is to feel that their life is worth something, that they are worth something, that they are too special, too valuable and too unique to die. The most important thing in life is our relationships with others and isolation can be a killer.
I am posting this as a part of the picture, not the whole picture. I know people also commit suicide because of mental health problems, because of clinical depression – there are as many reason s as there are people. These are just a few thoughts on it.
Nice post Hels 
. I think you are absolutely spot on regarding the unrealistic expectation of the attainment of a permanent state of happiness that is prevalent in our culture.
In fact it is normal and healthy to go through ‘down’ periods - as this allows you to reassess and question your prioroties and make necessary changes to your life or circumstances.
Jung said that periods of psychological breakdown were necessaryfor people to move forward and develop - e.g. the breakdown period allowed the psyche to mature, renew and adapt itself to changing circumstances.
I think that all of us who have gone through these experiences and ‘come out the other side’ have emerged the better for it.
Not always
Not the sort of post i would of expected to find on LB and one that has affected mt life dramatacly.
We all have physical health and mental health, as our physical health is poor sometimes, so can our mental health be poor, depression, stress or guilt leads to poor mental health which can lead to self harm or suicide.
“Better” is a debatable point, “stronger” may be a more accurate generalisation. I think one has to be careful about the “come out the other side” bit. For example, people with spinal injuries are 6x more likely to commit suicide than the average, usually (to my knowledge) within the first 2-3 years post injury. As they’re out of rehab on average in 6 months, one normally thinks that they’ve got over the worst at that point. Not so, and the same may apply to depression. It’s a difficult thing to judge and there may not be a step-change to a better place.
[quote=Hels]Intellectually we can debate the reasons for suicide and the ‘cures’, but in that situation, when someone is at the edge, what they need is to feel that their life is worth something, that they are worth something, that they are too special, too valuable and too unique to die. The most important thing in life is our relationships with others and isolation can be a killer.
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Absolutely.