Stricter CBT coming?

Just saw this on visordown:–general-news/tougher-cbt-planned/26376.html#ixzz3Tz0j7OjJ

Potentially a change for the better if implemented well, imho.

Maybe, maybe not. Part of it seems to be about reducing the expectation that CBT is a one day course - it’s technically a continuous assessment. If you’re not up to scratch to go out on the road then you may well have to come back on another day.

Having taught CBTs, I’m interested in the segregation issue. So far kids who’ve ridden their mates’ bike in a field are often slower to get the hang of clutch and slow control. Just because you’ve ridden before doesn’t mean you’ll be a quick learner.

The reason young riders do CBT but don’t go on to do their full test is more due to the change in the test regime than anything to do with CBT. However, I’m definitely for any aims to get standards of teaching up.

Clearly it won’t stop people from riding like a knob if they are hell bent on it.

That’s some really lazy reporting! “Changes are being considered - here’s the dry Government paper on the topic”

Could easily be greatly improved even within the one day limit, I think that the expectation (certainly my expectation when I did mine) is that you’ll rock up at 9am, a few hours pootling round a tennis court, quick ride around local roads and the certificate is a dead cert. I was lucky in the sense that my dad was a police biker and I knew a few other bikers who gave me some tips when I started but I remember riding into Oxford Circus on my first commute thinking ‘the CBT did not prepare me for this’.

If you take the CBT at 17, presumably there’s no real need to even look at the highway code?

I’m also not convinced that being able to just retake it every 2 years is enough. It was every year when I did mine, I think that a years expiry and then you have to do your full test (of whatever variety) after the second year is a reasonable expectation.

I don’t really think the CBT’s advertised as preparing you for riding through oxford circus, and I don’t think it ought to. It’s supposed to prepare you to begin learning how to ride a motorbike, and in the same way as your car instructor wouldn’t take you round the West End on your first lesson I’d expect most people to do their CBT and then spend a while riding around in suburbia getting the hang of it. I don’t know anyone who came out of their CBT under the impression that they were ready for anything more than to start learning how to ride a motorbike.

I think a better view, testing and enforcement of the current CBT is needed.

Currently a provisional license, a CBT and you can work as a commercial rider. That is not right. Also how much enforcement of CBT is done by the police? I used to work with someone who did his CBT and then rode for six years on that CBT. Had no problems insuring his 125 scooter, and no checks were done.

A fresh look at the CBT is long over due.

on what basis? after completing a CBT you are allowed on ANY UK road that isn’t designated as a motorway, you take that at face value, as most people would, and why shouldn’t you be fit to ride wherever you want to…

you give the general public too much credit, most haven’t got the common sense of a gnat.

the CBT is in need of an update, as is the rest of bike training, if the CBT is to be made harder then a review of the whole process of getting a full licence needs reconsidering.

CBT, theory, hazard perception, Mod1, Mod2. bit much I would say, and that is just to get your A2 if you are under 25.

ditch the CBT and make all new riders, including those irritating 3 wheelers, take the full test, and ditch mod 1 and put it all back on the road.

It takes an reported minimum of 40hrs to train a driver to pass the car test (and still be pretty rubbish), and we get what? 15 - 20 hours, if you are lucky, and have a diligent instructor. standards aren’t really high enough are they?

Here’s a fun fact. To make the test in line withe the rest of Europe the emergency stop and the swerve test are both conducted at 50kph wich is 31mph roughly. Therefore you would not only have to change the location but also the speed.:w00t:

And I’m sure like me, most people over egged it a bit to make sure they hit 50km/h. The combination of the relative novelty of a ‘powerful’ 500cc bike and not wanting to fail for being too slow through the speed trap meant that I was a bit heavy handed with the throttle.

Also, agree with kevsta and KTM D: we get told in the CBT that it’s not a license, just a certificate etc etc but at the end of the day, that certificate lets you ride a 125cc motorbike just about anywhere you would want to without any real knowledge. Pizza delivery firms (and others) use it as their default qualification for people who are ultimately professional riders and there are loads of people riding in London who will just update it every couple of years (if they bother) rather than taking a proper test.

A good start would be making the theory test a precursor to the CBT, if you need to know that stuff to be out on the road (and you clearly do, knowing what a no entry sign means is pretty useful) then why not test it before letting people out on the road? I would probably make the CBT more akin to the A1 test as well, I don’t think 2 or 3 days training is unreasonable to be let loose on the roads on what is still a pretty quick, unstable and potentially dangerous vehicle compared to a lot of cars.

Ultimately, any training is only any good if people remember it, pay attention to it and aren’t d#cks, I had to swerve to avoid an HGV driven on the wrong side of the road by some toothless cretin on the phone today - how many hours of training has he done to get an HGV license? And he still drives like a d#ck.

I can see the logic of Mod 1 - it removes things to a safe location that are difficult to set up on the road and some sort of off road element is probably required but to be honest, it could be done in 20 minutes at the start of the test rather than having learners trek to the centre twice for the two modules.

As someone who only passed their CBT a few days ago I agree that the CBT needs to be more in depth.

Personally I’d prefer it to be a 2 day course. 1 day off road with a re-cap off road on day 2 before hitting the roads.

Because I think most people are intelligent enough to not kill themselves on a 125 with L-plates and I don’t think the line above which you must be properly trained is more logically drawn below 125s than above them. It’s quite easy to not know what you’re doing with a bicycle or even on foot, and I’m not sure freshly-CBTed riders are likely to be worse on the roads than someone who hasn’t had any training since the 1960s.

I don’t think making people do tests before they’re allowed to do things does anything to fix the apparent problem whereby most people are too stupid to be trusted to think for themselves. I’m really unconvinced that it even hides it.

If I had to do that to get a motorbike I’d not have a license now. I really highly value the fact that I got to learn how to ride a bike rather than just trained through a test and I really dislike the idea that that’s necessarily the wrong way to do it. Nobody’s forced into learning by doing - you can already go and spend a week under the watchful eyes of some instructors to get your license if you so wish - but I don’t think that makes for better riders.

I think this is an actual problem, and I really don’t think it should be permitted that someone without a driving license be paid to drive. On the other hand, I do appreciate cheaply delivered fast food…

You can do exactly that. I doubt any CBT centre will be opposed to your offering to buy another day’s training.

I believe all tests driving and riding are fatally flawed. A continuous test / instruction over a number of hours. 2 hours town 2 hours motorway, 2 hours country, night driving ect. Is a good way to go. This is what happens in Germany / Norwayand I think the standard of driving is very high. There is a final test. ( you also need to go to night school for the theory). In Germany you even have to do a first aid course.

But in theory you could turn up to any test in this country with no experience and pass the tests by being lucky.

Yes it’s expensive but what price do you put on safety.

True, I’m frankly amazed that they get away with it from the HSE, if it was my industry (construction) I would have to write a risk assessment for someone using a vehicle for work (I have to write them for much less dangerous activities like picking stuff up and using a can of spray paint) and I wouldn’t be comfortable writing that a CBT meant that the rider was suitably trained to zip around London on a scooter (often in a dubious state of repair) wearing unsuitable clothing. I’d be equally uncomfortable with it from a moral point of view. Also, I’d probably be in court before the year was out.

I remember doing my DAS on a freezing cold December morning and talking to the instructors about a special pizza delivery CBT that they did, they guys turned up in fleece jackets and fleece gloves - they had to give up half way through because they were shivering uncontrollably in a petrol station.

ok i will be brief but to the point with this one

the cbt was never a 1 day course but some companies in the past as now sell it as such and at a very cheap price and cut corners galore they tell people they have failed it and charge them to come back for another go, wrong wrong wrong you cant pass or fail it, its a training course where you must meet a minimum standard of riding and saftey. blah blah blah i discoverd today 1 of my das students did a 30 minute road ride and was signed off that company should be closed down, yes much more strickter policeing of these rogue cbt schools should be enforced.

i tell all my cbt students to have a read of the HC before attending and i risk assess every student if they have poor control they dont go out if they dont have a basic knowlegde of the HC they dont go out if they refuse to wear full kit which i provide they go home.

i completed the consultation document regarding changes to the cbt regardless of what we say they as always will do what they want, good or bad right or wrong i dont think there should be down trained instructors if your not cardington assessed you shouldnt be teaching, you get 2 attempts at that then you got to wait a year before doing it again but you can still work down trained ? come on your kidding you fail the assessment but can still teach cbts to people no way thats just wrong. rant over

if you pay 50 quid for a cbt expect a monkey to teach you ask the school if there instructors are cardington assessed or down trained if you turn up and there are 10 students trying to learn ask your self how can they watch every one? they cant and if your road ride is less than the minimum legal requirment tell the DVSA in a letter and get them shut doown

that is all

Some schools are better than others, just like any other school it depends on the head master :wink:
Some down trained instructors are in my opinion excellent, others will be diabolical if they are allowed to get away with it.

You have to look at your target audience…

A conversation I overheard today between a 17yr old and shop owner
" I think I got flashed on the way here"
" I was not looking at my speedo"
I told you slow down
“My mate’s unrestricted his bike, I want to do the same as my 125 only goes 60mph”
You and your mum will have to sign a disclaimer if you want us to do it

I mean FFS the tool just got done for speeding and wants to de-restrict his bike, oh and he passed his CBT two weeks ago.
There is no hope…

Unfortunately Rusty, that sounds like a statistic in the making, and your former colleagues will probably have the hose the road down. Bad the shop would do it with you need to sign a waiver, which in court would get torn to shreds.

I heard something eerily similar today at On Yer Bike, was talking to a chap and a son of his mate who is 23 has just bought and spend £3K on tricking out a Z1000, only had his full license four weeks. I did tell the guy I hope that kid has a good head on his shoulders. Again another statistic in the making.

To be honest I hope both aren’t, but experience tells me both aren’t going to have happy endings. :frowning:

It strikes me the cbt is strict enough for what it’s intended for - making sure you are safe enough to go away and practice for your full test. For me, the issue is people thinking the cbt is all the training you need.

I would rather we did something to encourage people onto full test, like:

  • reduced the cbt length to a year
  • banned commercial use such as pizza delivery

I still think its ludicrous that you earn money on what is effectively a learner’s permit. Dominos would have to increase their prices though :frowning: