I’m going to let the two of you argue this one out…
I’m going for a ‘naughty’ skype session
I’m going to let the two of you argue this one out…
I’m going for a ‘naughty’ skype session
I’m afraid its another mismatched bout.
I’m sorry Kaos and Superoli but i do not give a FK how the evidence against him was gathered, that is up to the Jordanians! The fact of the matter is that this ct is not a british citizen, he is Jordanian and was convicted in Jordan so he should be sent back there to be sentenced. All he is doing is taking the piss out of the people he despises and his legal team are raking it in, so of course they don’t want to see him go! And that’s another thing, who is paying for all these appeals? No doubt, you and I! Surely if they take away his legal aid he will no longer be able to fight extradition. And while we are on the subject of the abomination that is Human Rights, what about MY Human Right not to live in fear of terrorists? If this c**t is released he will only go back to stirring up hate against us and who knows where that will lead, 7/7 all over again! All I know is that if I was still inside and he was on my wing, I’d go for him! Saying that tho he is probably on the numbers (rule 43) and in segregation, which is even more of a wind up as the privileges they get in there are a joke, TV, choice of meals, private exercise, no forced work, private gym time (not that that is an issue!). Rant over! INFIDEL FOR LIFE!!
Oh and Kaos, please don’t try and engage me in some form of political debate as I am the least political person going! You did make a good point about the home sec tho, ghost him out, resign and then say ‘my bad’! Once he’s out that will be the end of it!
That is a cop out and you know it.
Of course they cannot raise it in a court case in the UK, without adducing evidence to prove that, which will be extraordinarily difficult.
The facts are though:
Jordan was involved in rendition of individuals.
Those individuals were tortured.
Evidence was gained from them.
The reason AQ is not being deported is because the English and European courts are concerned that he will be tried using evidence gained from torture.
How can English lawyers get evidence from Jordan, which insists in claiming that AQ will gain a “fair trial”, despite being unable to actually define what that means, about whether the information they intend to try AQ on was obtained by torture from people who suffered rendition?
That does not mean that it is not a legitimate point to raise in defence of the rhetoric and bullsh*t being touted by not only the Government but the media as well.
The idea that we should withdraw from this ridiculous European Convention…despite being the country that drafted it, despite the fact that this is about the very fundamental legal principle that people shouldn’t be tortured.
The only thing irritating about AQ is the fact that he is being used as a scapegoat by the Government to strip every single person in this country of their basic human rights, and the worst part is that while it is happening people are cheering them on.
It is fucking scary.
I do care mate.
Because if you don’t care that people were tortured to gain evidence, then why shouldn’t the UK government do it?
It doesn’t matter if the evidence obtained from torture is worthless, or you end up torturing innocent people…the ends justify the means.
I can’t agree to that.
Good call Kaos, so what`s the way ahead ?
Deport him and don’t care what happens to him
What is the psychopath option, that is always best in the short term.
Tell him his house is full of asbestos.
Ok, answer me this…What the f**k does this have to do with England? He is not a citizen of this country and is only hiding here because he can, he is nothing to do with this country!! So what if evidence against him was gained through torture, so what if he is going to be tortured!! There is no justification for giving a terrorist safe refuge which is exactly what we are doing right now.
And another thing, in the case of terrorism, I believe that torture is fully justified. If one innocent life is saved just because someone had their fingernails pulled off then I’m all for it, in fact f**k it give me the pliers and I’ll do it! In fact I’d go further than torture but that’s not for an open internet forum!
And finally I have never ‘copped’ out of anything in my life, I do not possess your vast legal knowledge/education so do not wish to get into it with you! TBH I preferred it when you used your powers for good!
Brilliant reply Vern - not bad for someone so uneducated! I agree with every word and I would also happily do the torturing. I HOPE there are people fully committed and enabled to ensure my safety by using torture if needs be (as well as smarter ways). Whatever the means, I’m fine with that. As for your question of what has this got to do with the UK. Well in this case nothing. Kaos keeps mentioning Rendition in a pretty lame attempt at implying the UK or USA had something to do with this case.
So Vern you haven’t answered the earlier question. Before you give up on the UK - where would you go?
Bosnia and HertzogerVernia?
If only this could happen again - in a different direction and with a better outcome…
In 1981, Biggs was kidnapped by a gang of British ex-soldiers. The boat in which Biggs and his kidnappers were sailing had mechanical problems off Barbados. The stranded kidnappers and Biggs were rescued by the Barbados Coast guard and towed into port in Barbados. The kidnappers hoped to collect a reward from the British police but Barbados had no extradition treaty with the United Kingdom and Biggs was sent back to Brazil…
I remember chatting to a mate after 7/7 about the use of torture on suspected terrorists. I was arguing against it, he for it.
He said to me “Whatever the rights and wrongs, do you think for a minute that an MI5 dood, faced with a guy he knows has information that could prevent another attack, is just going to ask him what he knows and no more? The guy has a family, he wants to protect them, same as you and me. He will torture him if he thinks that could prevent another attack.”
I think that kind of sums it up, torture is a disgusting, vile thing to do to anybody, but one step down from blowing up bombs on trains. The state should never back torture, but individuals will always make their own judgements on what to do - it’s inevitable.
I think Vern’s argument “What about my human rights not to live in fear?” or indeed, not to be blown up by a bomb, is the strongest argument for action. That said, the State can’t simply say bollocks to this or that law. What sort of example is that to the rest of us?
What I don’t understand, is if there is evidence against him, not extracted using torture, why can’t we put him on trial here? Once convicted, he can then be deported at the end of / or during his sentence.
He has been tried and convicted in Jordan already - for crimes committed under their jurisdiction and against their laws. Trying him here would be a worse travesty. Imagine I kill someone here then go to France to avoid the charges. They try me in my absence and convict me - but France has to put on a trial of its own??? That can’t work. The only issue is whether his treatment in Jordan (his own country) will breach his human rights. That is one for the lawyers to argue of course, but it makes my blood boil that we have to respect this scumbags rights - he would respect yours nor mine.
As for torture your mate was making a good point. My wife had WAY too close a call on 7/7, but it could have been your wife, or kid or any of ours. That inevitability on an individual level does in my opinion scale to protect all in this country - we are one big family in that sense and I expect our government to empower security forces to use all their skills to keep this country safer. I’m sure they have better techniques than Vern and I would employ…
Simon - I’m not going to say where I’d like to move to as I’m sure the moment I do somebody is going to bring up a point as to why I shouldn’t. It’s just that I do still love my country but the law/government are making it harder to do so. And it’s not just AQ, nonces being given a slap on the wrist and then released to live opposite a playground, teen chavs that kick a father to death and get off as they are too young to prosecute, immigration where it is ok to step off a plane from wherever and demand a house and free money that you have not contributed to in any way!! Would I get that if I tried it anywhere in the world?
The USA has a lot of faults (no, that’s not my country of choice!) but the one thing that some states have right is the ‘three strikes’ law. We need that form of deterrent here and trust me, as an ex con that takes a lot to admit! There is nothing stopping the scumbags in this country, the scumbag way of thinking is if I get caught, f**k it! One or two years (if that!) on easy street, TV in my cell, movies on demand, three squares a day, sleep all day and chill with like-minded individuals!! Prison itself for these people is only separation from the outside world and if they do not have family or care about the ones they do have then they simply do not care about doing another stretch! And trust me this is from the heart as if I did not love my family as much as I do then I would be straight back to doing the thing I used to do!! The type of people that end up in prison (me included!) do not have the switch in their brain that tells them what is right or wrong so we need a harsh deterrent that makes that decision for them, if you get caught doing wrong for a third time you WILL spend the rest of your life in prison, NO parole and that is where you will die! I’d also bring back hanging for the more extreme cases!!
And before anybody jumps all over me, I am not proud of the life I have led but I did my time for my crimes and it is all behind me now. The people on here that know of my past have accepted me and become true friends and for that I am grateful.
Bluelagos - you make a very valid point BUT…what’s a dood??
Triang - There is no reason why that could not happen other than that AQ is now too high profile, when that happened to Ronnie he had fallen off the radar a bit!
‘Sits back, hands behind head, exhales and waits for Kaos to open LB’ Vern out!!
Aannddd…Yes, I know that in the majority of cases torture is wrong and abhorrent BUT if frying Abu Babu’s nuts with a car battery prevents a repeat of something like 9/11, all those innocent lives lost, fathers that did not return to their families, husbands/wives/lovers all lost, their only crime was to try and provide for the people they care about by going to work, all extinguished because of a small collection of nutter’s beliefs, then I’m all for it!
(Sorry if my punctuation is a bit wonky, goes out the window when I’m on one!)
Fair enough Vern on not naming the country you would like in - and yes I was planning to explain why that wouldn’t be such a good idea. Why was I was confident that I could do that? Well having lived and worked abroad and travelled a lot I can tell you that Britain STILL is GREAT Britain. Sure there are some things that frustrate but this country has a hell of a lot going for it. I currently am considering moving abroad again, but leaving the UK is still a very tough decision.
I’m quite surprised to hear you talking about the three strikes law given your history (which is “in the past” as far as I’m concerned). I lived in the States for years and was aware of people being sentenced to life in prison for offences such as shoplifting. It’s a clumsy law that might sound good at first but has some terrible unfair consequences. I also don’t think it is much of a deterrent - it just doesn’t seem to stop people doing stupid (sometimes petty) things. California has decided to modify the law by the way - so inmates can go before a judge to try and prove that they will no longer be a danger to society. The mods are a good thing.
So hypothetical situation:
I am in Britain and some clown court in a foreign country finds me guilty of a crime because they tortured some friends of mine who basically would say anything to stop the pain…you think its fair for me to get extradited to that country?
ps if the government had drafted the agreement with Jordan correctly in the first place we wouldnt be in this mess…it looks like finally they may have done it last night
when torture goes wrong:
Friends of yours that shared the same extreme beliefs? Then yes.