In the EU or out

I hope someone on here can put mind at rest
Im getting so confused with this eu thing and the more i read the more confused I’m getting
Must be my age not long now till i get to kick the bucket
What are the pluses for staying in or leaving
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I’m for leaving
because of eu corruption

Part of the problem really, is it is so complicated that most lay people don’t understand the economics enough to actually grasp what the effects of leaving will be.
Even professional economists don’t completely agree on the consequences.

What is interesting with this referendum is it is not split down party lines- there are people on the left and the right in both camps and significant numbers to make it confusing.
Many people are making the decision based on a single issue- immigration, jobs, trade or whatever, without considering the totality of the decision. 

Being part of Europe comes with a cost (money to Brussels), the ceding of some choices from being made on British soil to being agreed in Brussels.
There is a belief (in the no camp) that leaving Europe will see that cost disappear, but that is not necessarily so- Norway is not a member of the EU and yet has to abide by many of its rules in order to trade with the EU. 

So there is a lot of misinformation kicking about, on both sides of the argument.
Both camps are painting their solution as being somehow ideal and the other side as being terrible, when (imho) the reality there are significant downsides to both choices.

It’s a ridiculous referendum for reasons hogtrumpet has pointed out. What’s the point in asking people who know nothing about what is a very important issue to pretend that they’re actually knowledgeable and informed on the issue? Politics-twoddle. It’s dangerous exactly because nobody actually understands the whole issue, or even part of the issue. We’re just being suckered into doing something whilst kidding ourselves that we’re actually empowering ourselves to solve issues we think we know about.

indeed - that democracy for you - everyone has a equal say no matter how qualified. I’d like to see a detailed unbiased review of the pros and cons of staying and leaving. I’d like to see examples of an EU law that’s shown a measurable harm to the UK, and of blocked rules which would of benefited. 

I believe that we really should be integrating more; and that if done well it breads success - but I do think EU is made up of many differing countries all pulling in different ways. In short I haven’t a clue - yet I think its an important choice…

I have to agree that i don’t know which way to vote it keeps changing from one day to the next
When i’m thinking of the in vote i keep thinking that they are not telling the hole story and there must be more to it than its better for us to be part of a group

When i thinking of the out vote you seam only to read all the scare stories of loosing jobs
And no one will trad with us
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And no one will trad with us
This is just wrong - we traded before the EU; we'd still trade. The other side would lose out as much as we would; so the'd want to keep trading. We currently use different currencies so that wouldn't change. The legal side might change a bit though.
And no one will trad with us
This is just wrong - we traded before the EU; we'd still trade. The other side would lose out as much as we would; so the'd want to keep trading. We currently use different currencies so that wouldn't change. The legal side might change a bit though. Abzero
Depends on what you mean by trade. For instance- Norway is not a member of the EU but is a member of the European Economic Area.
In order to be a member of the EEA it has to pay into the EU to the tune of around £340m a year- our equivalent spend might be 2 billion.

Norway also has no power in the decision-making process in Brussels.
We certainly will be able to be able to trade if we leave but the way in which we trade would change- tax would change, the agreements we currently have would have to be renegotiated.

Or we go with the Swiss model- Switzerland has something like 120 bilateral agreements with EU members, and it negotiates on a sector by sector basis.

Out… our laws our rights our counrty.

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Ah yes… let’s play the Image argument. Seems like a classic internet way of debating… :slight_smile:

Personally I don’t much care - there’s no way of getting to a concrete answer of if its good or bad. Media, politicians and even people all look at it through their own lens of interest… 

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@Serrisan: LOL.

And no one will trad with us
This is just wrong - we traded before the EU; we'd still trade. The other side would lose out as much as we would; so the'd want to keep trading. We currently use different currencies so that wouldn't change. The legal side might change a bit though. Abzero
Depends on what you mean by trade. For instance- Norway is not a member of the EU but is a member of the European Economic Area. In order to be a member of the EEA it has to pay into the EU to the tune of around £340m a year- our equivalent spend might be 2 billion.

Norway also has no power in the decision-making process in Brussels.
We certainly will be able to be able to trade if we leave but the way in which we trade would change- tax would change, the agreements we currently have would have to be renegotiated.

Or we go with the Swiss model- Switzerland has something like 120 bilateral agreements with EU members, and it negotiates on a sector by sector basis.

hogtrumpet
Well a trade is just an exchange of goods/services etc. So there's no stopping us setting up these bilateral agreements with who ever; and it'd be in the interest of both parties to keep the same sort of agreements in place i'd have thought. 

Although I acknowledge that its far more complicated - London is the a centre for companies in the EMEA region, and one of the reason is being within the EU. Leaving the EU would have a negative effect on this i’m sure. But how big, I don’t know

I agree it is very complicated- it is like trying to comprehend the totality of the ocean by looking at a single fish- it is impossible, really.
My mind is mostly made up to stay in, mainly because of the disruption leaving would cause.
We’ve just had several years of recession/global financial crisis, several wars and less stability isn’t something I crave.

Out.. our laws our rights our counrty. BusterCBR
pfffffff... the things one has to read, fuck my life... I would rather stick with Europe than keep being the USA´s little bitch sign the TTIP and loose all rights to privacy, work rights, social benefits and turn the UK into a massive corporation. 

This being said you can do whatever your democracy allows you to and whatever makes you happy but I don´t see much point on adding extra borders within Europe these days. You are not paying for the rest of EU welfare, you still have the sterling pound, a strong currency that allows you to often get a better deal when trading with Europe. What´s the point of adding more layers and barriers? Yes you might have to pay a few millions here and there to some bureaucrats and leeches, and apply a few laws but that´s peanuts compared with the benefits you get out of it.  And that´s my opinion.

Leave.  If I remember correctly, there was a major change in the motorcycle test that made it necessary to do training and test off the public highway.  That was pulling an emergency stop from 50 kph, which is 31.068 mph.  Because it is illegal to do over 30 mph in town roads, the test had to be done in a controlled area off of the public highway.  Maybe Stuart Fordyce can verify this?

I don’t like the idea of a foreign country laying down rules for Britain.  I’m sure none of you would like my to tell you how to play the guitar either, as I don’t play the guitar.

You almost struck a chord there, Martin.

@acman. That was our own stupid politions that made everything in kilometres. Trying to fit in not an eu regulation. Absolutely ridiculous.  

do what the hell you want to. I’m holding on to my German passport and getting the hell out this country if you leave the eu

The EU didn’t decided we had to do the test off the highway. Our Government did that. The same test is done on the highway in all other countries. All the UK needed to do was ignore less than half a kph and allow it on the road. But they insisted on sticking to the letter of the EU test and then decided that this meant it could not be done on UK roads.

Lucky the EU isn’t a country then eh?

I agree it is very complicated- it is like trying to comprehend the totality of the ocean by looking at a single fish- it is impossible, really. My mind is mostly made up to stay in, mainly because of the disruption leaving would cause. We've just had several years of recession/global financial crisis, several wars and less stability isn't something I crave. hogtrumpet
Indeed. There would have to be a very compelling reason to leave EU; compared to the upheaval it would cause.