you seem to forget its not their country anyway! the palestinians were there 1st and the jews got given the land by the allies on agreement they would not infringe on the non jewish occupants rights and beliefs.it is of course wrong to say they should sit back and take attacks by hamas but to launch an attack of this scale on a largley innocent population is the worse of 2 evils.definition of a terrorist: 'a radical who employs terror as a political weapon’now explain to me what part of that dosnt describe the isralie governments recent actions
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mr.mo (07/01/2009)
also this comment offends me and im sure others deeply, i have family in the middle east and for you to assume they do not want peace as much as anyone else is an outrage. your comments show no compassion for the innocents killed or any views as to hopes for an end to it and for you to sit here and slander people and situations you obviously do not understand is pathetic 
Of course it is all wrong.
Are we naive enough to think that a boycott will do any good?
The big powers are supplying the arms - they are responsible.
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mr.mo (07/01/2009)
here we go, you gonna shoot me now because I have spoken my mind in a free and honest society…now its become a personal attack upon me because you dont like to hear other peoples opinions, especially ones that you dont like…
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mr.mo (07/01/2009)
pretty sure 2strokes is talking about recent leaders of select middle easy countries rather than than talking about the general population.
I’m certain most of the population of afgan didn’t share the views of their previous leader etc etc.
Looks like you are just picking on an individual rather than discussing the ACTUAL ISSUE!!!
And of course, we are all hoping for a swift end to the deaths of innocents involved in this conflict. Get back to the point Mo
http://news.aol.co.uk/sir-alan-target-for-extremists/article/20090106224357433349569
think this is the real problem for society…the extremists dont want peace they want their way and only their way…and that is sensible?..
It’s quite simple - the Palestinians have been kicked out of their country by invaders from other lands - who have spent the last 60 years trying to physically squeeze them out of existence - no one on this forum would accept this - and many of you would be actively fighting against it. To provide a bit of perspective - look at the Falklands issue - a lot of British people got indignant and angry when the Falkland islands were taken over by the Argentines - rightly so - it was an act of unprovoked aggression - however - if we got angry over the Falklands and were prepared to expend blood and treasure in getting it back (and let’s face it - it’s an inhospitable place far away in the south Atlantic that I doubt many people outside of the armed forces will ever visit or have any intention of visiting) - Imagine for a second how you would react if a load of armed settlers from another part of the world turned up and started kicking you out of your homes and herding you into the outer reaches of Wales and Scotland at gunpoint where you are forced to live in tents for the next half century (and perpetrating a few massacres along the way to encourage you to get moving e.g. the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin was wiped out by Zionist terrorists). I reckon that all of you would feel like firing rockets at them - you would also feel justified in attacking states which bankroll them and provide logistical, political and moral support (crikey are the new labour thought police going to arrest me for typing this stuff - better be careful! :crazy: )
The Israelis don’t want peace - they understand that the key to their survival is the physical, political and military domination of the region - which demands that they act like an aggressive colonial power - perpetuating wars and oppression to maintain the status quo - normalisation of the status of Israel in the region (the opening up of borders, economic co-operation and the free movement of people along the lines of EU states) would lay bare the inherent contradictions of a minority settler state which would sink under the demographic and economic realities of a peaceful middle east.
I found this article pretty useful in giving some historical perspective on the issue, it’s quite long but pretty damn good
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
Thanks Plurker - a quote from the article by an ex-Israeli soldier and Oxford academic:
This brief review of Israel’s record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with “an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders”. A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel’s real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination.
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2strokes (07/01/2009)
i have no problems hearing others views but for you to assume things about a people/culture you do not know is not in my eyes helpful to any debate but just a jab at them.
Well it certainly puts feeling miserable about having to do a tax return in perspective. I wish there was more I could do (more than stopping using L’oreal mascara and drinking coke…)
and perhaps most importantly…"There is simply no military solution to the conflict between the two communities."Thanks Plurker- good link.
I have to agree with Mo here, although 2T’s comment may have been unintentional in it’s insinuation it did come across as stereotyping all Arabs/those from the Middle East as people who only believe in the way of Islam and therefore intolerant of other beliefs, which is simply not true!
To quote the article in Plurkers link…
“…the simple truth is that the Palestinian people are a normal people with normal aspirations. They are no better but they are no worse than any other national group. What they aspire to, above all, is a piece of land to call their own on which to live in freedom and dignity.”
Something which has constantly been denied by Israel, backed by the US for decades! 
As far as I can see, injustice has been and is continuing to be done by both sides, arguably in equal measure, therefore arguments on both sides seem to be as strong as each other. It would be nice if they just somehow cancelled each other out, leaving no argument at all, and everyone lived in peace. Brings to mind these words written by John Lennon:“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace”
Ever there was an argument for collectively doing away with organised religion altogether, then the Middle East is surely it. Religion seems to be the basis for an awful lot of killing out there these days, and not just in Gaza.
I am very much looking forward to hearing the “plenty” that Barack Obama has to say about this issue following his 20 January inauguration. Hopefully this will include drawing up agreements with the other nations and organisations that fund these two territories, whereby their income gets drastically reduced if they continue to fight or commit any other forms of violence or repression.You may say that I’m a dreamer. But I’m not the only one.
Some good points being made here, and everybody has a right of opinion, so let’s not get personal.
I think it’s correct to say that the Israelis also have a right to defend themselves, but let’s put it in perspective and remember a couple of things:
- The western media is heavily biased and is very careful not to upset the Jewish religion while it has no problem mocking/slating/generalising the Islam
- “We” call “religious extremists”, when “we” mean Muslim extremists. I can’t see any difference between people declaring war “in the name of god” and people declaring the right of land because “god promised the land”. Let’s not forget it’s very recent that the land of Israel was stolen in this way.
I don’t feel any affinity for any religion, in fact all upset me quite a lot, but I feel for how one group is heavily sponsored by the west and the other side has been bullied for many years.
2T is right, if somebody shoots a rocket, you’re likely to shoot back, but one should also remember that if you bully somebody until they break, you’ll turn them into an uncontrollable maniac. That’s what happened in my opinion.
But again, with the current level of globalisation, there’s only one vote that really carries a lot of weight, and that’s the vote of your dollar. So whichever side you’re on, you can make a difference by spending your money differently, but let companies know you do it for this reason.
Just look at the recent US elections. I know Obama was very popular, but had the election budgets been the other way around, would victory have been that certain? Unfortunately I don’t think so. Where does the budgets come from & who is responsible for those companies making big profits or not?
It may have been true that at one time more people died fighting over religion than anything else but sadly in this day and age the world is run on economics. It’s all about gaining political control over an area or region purely for it’s resources, financial potential or strategic position which helps to bring the first two points to fruition.
Well bearing in mind that the aggressor with the most military might in this situation is heavily backed and funded by the US and it’s allies sadly I can’t see that happening, so yes I would say you’re a dreamer Eezy, but it’s a nice dream… 
Over the last few weeks I’ve followed this with growing concern – now being German I have to be really careful what I say, but believe me when I say being a Jew-hating Nazi isn’t the same as being a critic of the policies of the state of Israel. I am the latter.
Now sure, Israel has the right to defend itself, but slaughtering hundreds of people indiscriminetly isn’t “self-defence” and will work against them in the long term. It merely increases the number and determination of the people that want to see them driven into the sea.
If Israel would get its head out of it’s ass, give these people a proper, free state and along them to prosper, I’m sure these problems would go away by themselves. Who would support a radical missile-chucking Hamas if the Israelis helped them get jobs, good lives, motorbikes, Play Stations? Nobody, they’d hand them to the authorities!
It’s kindness, not violence, that will solve this conflict for good.
Until then, check out John Stewart’s very funny and brilliant take on the situation:
'Nuff said.
I would like to see the same thing mate - but the only thing that the Israelis understand and respect (along with any other state) is power - as long as they have a blank cheque from the United States to do what they want regardless of the U.N. or international public opinion they will continue to try and strangle the Palestinian people to death and dominate the region - consequently the United States shouldn’t act shocked and suprised when they get attacked by arabs/muslims who are sick to death of watching this unjust and one sided conflict unfold seemingly without end.This also explains why the Iranians want a nuclear weapon - not to physically use it - but to use the threat of using it (in the same way that all nuclear armed countries do) to guarantee their freedom from attack by hostile rogue states like the U.S. and Israel which have a recent and past history of pre-empting and launching illegal wars - and to give them leverage in negotiations with the U.S. and Israel on their own (and the Palestinians) behalf.
I neither endorse the Iranian regime (I profoundly disagree with it on many points) - nor do I agree with attacks on the U.S. or anyone - but it has to be understood that this conflict has two sides to it.
To quote Malcolm X - “the only thing power respects is power”.
sorry guys I missed all of this debate…was in florida still am. To clarify I did not make any reference to anyone or anything just the middle east, jew, syrian, muslim, whatever, I said they were all not know for their levels of sensibility…or so it would seem from our side…
I did make the point that war was not the answer from either side but who can make them all talk and more importantly make them stick to what they say…
Its totally no good to keep harking on about they did this and they did that…its time to forget and move on…sorry for re-opening this but I missed all the fun and am now crying in my soup…cant beat a good prejudiced and hypocrtical statement to start a long and angry debate…
The Unites States has this power - but NEVER puts any serious pressure on Israel to pull it’s settlements out of the west bank - and refuses to agree to a U.N. ceasfire while the Israelis are murdering HUNDREDS of civilians - only this morning news is emerging that israeli troops herded a hundred palestinians into a building which was then shelled 24 hours later - I seem to recall that Nazi troops on the Eastern front in WWII herded Russian peasants into churches which were then bombed/set alight.
Question - why does the U.S. allow Israel to get away with this?