France banning the Veil (Burkha) in public

haha!!!

me im not sure. but i do know if you go to any country, you have to abide by theyre rules, thumbs up is an insult, whats so different. you wont to live there,you have to speak the languange, you wont to live in australia you have to have a trade, and money, you come here all you need is

thats it.thing need to tighten up here as well as the rest of the world.

but at the end of the day we are all just passing through:D so in joy what you can. ride as much as much you can:hehe:

I would point to the “norm” which lead to the banning of Fox Hunting. We banned Fox Hunting, which some claimed was a part of our own cultural heritage, because it caused pain and suffering to animals. Despite the personal desires of those involved in the “sport”.
It was also a national ban, implying a national norm.

The Farm Animal and Welfare Council an independent body that advises Government on animal cruelty stated that both the Halal and Kosher method of preparing food should be banned, they are very similar. Here is the BBC report from 2003.

Here is the same group reiterating their complaint in 2009, reported in the Independent Newspaper, just so we understand that nothing has changed since 2003.It would appear that not everyone agrees that it is painless.

If its religious, it shouldn’t matter…
Delusional concepts are people’s own personal business.
No one dictates how many voices I’m allowed to hear or when I have to satisfy the demands of those voices, so why should anyone give a poo about someone else’s delusional behaviour either…

Religion is the propaganda of the Middle Ages… when are people gonna just get over it?!

Part of the argument is rendered irrelevant when connected with statements such as the following :

The Humanists movement, which has previously called for the abolition of ritual slaughter, said ethical values should be put above religious ones. “There is no imperative for Muslims or Judaists to eat meat produced in this manner,” said spokesman Roy Saich. “There is no reason why they should not simply abstain from eating meat altogether if they do not wish to eat the same meat as the rest of us.”

Roy Saich is displaying his complete ignorance when he says there is no imperative, when in fact the religious law relating to shecitah is very clear and precise. I know this, because I have studied it, seemingly unlike Roy. The final nail is Roy’s argument is that if we don’t want to eat meat that hasn’t been slaughtered in a kosher way, well then tough, we will have to live without meat. WHAT??? Utter utter tosh!

Other scientific research also seems to disagree with the opinion of FAWC.

And this brings us back to my original question, once we start down this route where does it stop? Do you prohibt the circumcision of baby boys? Do you stop people from wearing any symbol of their religious beliefs, incase it upsets other people? How about you stop people from practicing their religious beliefs at all with the threat of imprisionment? Oh wait! That has been done before…most recently by Communist Russia and that was a shining example of ethics and morality.

Let us be clear, the banning of the burkha has got nothing to do with the oppression of women and everything to do with having a pop at the Muslims.

Why not just come straight out and call me stupid for having religious beliefs and believing in G-d?

In fact, better than that, maybe I’ll pop along to the BMM and you can say it right to my face.

I think the problem is Waxy that the argument that it is having a pop at muslims is entirely false and is merely a way for those that wish to oppresive women to do so under the guise of religious freedom and religious persecution. I do not believe you are one of those people, but you are perpetuating that argument to suit your own opinion and beliefs.

You know what was having a pop at muslims and islam? Banning minarets in Switzerland. That is fair enough. Banning cruelty to animals, banning the Bhurka these are not having a pop at any religion.

You can’t hide behind your religious beliefs to justify actions that society finds abhorrent.

I don’t personally think you are stupid for believing in God btw or having religion, it is your choice and your personal freedoms should be protected. They should not give you, or anyone else, an exemption to the morals and norms of our society.

That includes women’s rights and freedoms and it includes the prevention of cruelty to animals.

As to circumcision as I understand it, especially in North America, this is a practice used far outside Jewish communities and is done for hygiene reasons. It is also a medical procedure, a friend of mine had it done aged 41…ouch…I see no reason to ban that procedure.

You can’t use religion or the slippery slope argument to justify behaviour. Each action must be judged on its merits and viewed in light of our socities norms, morals and ethics. Now if our ethics are wrong, then we should fight to change those, but if our morals are right then it is religion that must change.

An interesting post Kaos.Nothing we are seeing here is any different to legislation against religious groups that has been set out in the past. Throughout human history different groups have sought to stop the religious practices and conventions of one group or another; Jews, Muslims, Christians. This is just the same, but done under the guise of liberalism and modernism.I am not hiding behind my religious beliefs to justify for example shecitah. It is because of our religious beliefs that we must be allowed to continue to prepare meat in the kosher way, in a way that is prescribed by G-d. If you are a religious person and believe in G-d, then you believe that His word and His laws must be obeyed in the way that He prescribed. You cannot allow this to be comprised because it is sanctified and holy. And if you do allow it to be compromised, where does the compromise stop? Whilst you personally do not have a problem with circumcision, I can tell you there are plenty of people that would like to stop this practice and I personally have been verbally abused on internet forums for having both my sons circumcised. I have been accused of abusing my children and carrying out a barbaric act. So you might not want to stop me from this particular religious act, but others would. I am therefore not hiding behind it, but stating that as a fact of my religious beliefs we have certain conventions and practices that are fundamental to being Jewish.Perhaps there are not direct lines that can be drawn between shecitah and the burkha, but it is still a worry when I see the practices of a religious group being legislated against, because as I am sure you can appreciate this is something that I would naturally be very wary of.

Given that religious persecution has been an ongoing theme thoughout history I don’t think it is fair to dismiss your concerns.

If you look at almost all religions, there are parts of it that are simply not observed anymore because they are seen as outdated. I think the problem stems when an outside influence states that those practices are outdated as opposed to an internal natural evolution.

Christianity, as an example I am more familiar with, has over many hundreds of years of dominance been allowed to slowly evolve with no superior power exerting any pressure. So those parts that we as a general society have felt were morally wrong, as our morals have evolved, have just been ignored, we don’t stone women for adultery for instance.

I think if Christianity hadn’t been exported worldwide, if it were not so dominant within the western powers that seem to have so much control and influence, then other religions may have adapted and grown on their own, however, the moment you introduce an outside element, the stance from within those groups becomes defensive. Any attempt to change elements of them on moral grounds becomes an attack against that religion.

Unfortunately I think morals trump religion and if religion needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century then so be it.

I never say this but i agree with the French on this.

Surely you don`t back up the Belgians?

I agree with you.

People should be able to wear whatever they want.

Preventing women from wearing the veil has got nothing to do with liberation and everything to do with hounding muslims.

Only a very small number of women wear the full veil anyway and banning it only forces people into a corner. If anything it is more likely to make women take up wearing it as an act of defiance and to make the muslim community feel even more under seige.

Fair point Ms Phoenix, some of us wander round at home wearing handcuffs and a butt plug so who are we to criticise.

However in our present economic crisis, fining someone £1000 for walking the streets in a Batman outfit could offset the revenue from speed cameras since we all now ride like pansies.

Your morals, in your mind, trump my and other people’s religions . . . so no surprise there. Same attitude that’s been displayed by all the tyrants from year dot . . . ethnic cleansing is only just a little bit further down that road . . .

You can choose to live your life by your rules but it’s so very selfish and bigoted of you to try to tell me and other people how to live their lives. I am a Christian and I find it strange that it’s people like me who are increasingly having to defend the rights of other ethnic groups to be able to practice their religions without interference and in peace, from people like you who claim to be “progressive”.

Oh well . . . I doubt you understand any of this so I’m off to bed :slight_smile:

ps Do you have a veil ? . . . I’ll make you one if you like :wink:

Fair point, if people believe superstitions can help then lead a better life leave them to it.

Steve… Never claimed them to be my morals. Technicality I know, but it makes a difference to the argument. I suppose this tactic of saying my morals goes along with the tactic of invoking that slippery slope to ethnic cleansing argument.Should we allow people to stone people to death if they commit adultery…I mean it is a part of their religious beliefs, part of sharia law and part of christian law once. BBC Report here of a recent case involving Iran, I believe that Iran succumbed to the pressure eventually and relented on the sentence.

Still, we interefered, I believe a list of Hollywood stars wrote an open letter to Iran…how dare they, those ethnic cleansing wannabes.

It is such a silly argument that I can’t really be bothered to engage with you any further on it, it is why I ignored you the first time you posted.

When you can engage without being silly, please do, I enjoy this types of debate when they are conducted with some sense. Just claiming that any interference with another persons religious activities, without clarifying that there are limits, is a step towards ethnic cleansing, it is rather childish.

Religion is an antiquted concept and causes more trouble than it is worth.

Why can`t we all just be nice considerate people and live together in harmony.

Lets all make a concerted effort to be nice to each other, its not difficult.

Accept the inadequacies of others as an integral part of life.

For yourself, just try to be true and non judjemental of others.

Should everyone subscribe to the above the world would be a better place.

(PS to Chaos, get yerself on a dating website for a few weeks and get yerself a girlfriend to chat to. After a few days get another as the first one will be bored.:))

That or sleeping pills.

the muslim council of france are all for the ban, probably to tak some of the pressure of people wearing it off them as they dont agree with it too.

Peace and love.:slight_smile:

We`re all the same in bed.