Failed CBT, should they charge me for next session?

Well, I would say that I was doing okay, there was nothing serious, it was just the excercise of changing gears upt o 3, then decrease and stop. I personally think that maybe half an hour or hour more and I’d have it under far better control. We completed all other excercises before lunch (slalom, slow riding, u turn, figure of 8 etc etc) and then when we came back we did only this one excercise. Meanwhile we were doing it some of instructor mates came on their sports bike and he spent quite some time chatting with them. We finished just before 3pm, instructor didn’t even had a bike for himself waiting to take us on the road if we would be good enough. I don’t want to argue if his decision was good or wrong, he is the instructor and he knows better but what I’m trying to say is maybe if there would be just a little bit more time, more attention then I’d go out on the road. And I don’t want to argue if 55 pounds is a lot or isn’t, it should be clearly stated on the pricing information and if it isn’t someone should let me know before I paid and started my training because if I see that this training is designed to make me roadworthy in one day then I belive it is true and that’s what I’m paying for. They should mention that some novice might require further training and they will charge for that. For example it is clearly stated in their DAS pricing section that extra day is 20 pounds.
Anyway I learned quite a lot this day and instructors spent some time to explain few things to me, don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame them for all this situation but I thing that some things could be improved.

Two issues there Iggy.

Word of mouth is not that strong in the world of new riders. I went to a school out in billericay and it has a terrible reputation, but people still post up here their stories from going there to learn, and the place is still in business.

The other thing I would say is that it is January. Not exactly the height of the season for biking. Having someone come back for £55 is still £55 more than having no customer, or, more advantageous than having empty spaces on a day you are running for other people.

As I said, the apparent bias within this system is terrible, whether there is actual bias does not matter, because perception is the issue. You are dealing with people who are new to riding, are a bit naive about it, a bit worried and concerned, have no expectations of what is coming up, and you put the ability to delay those people and make money from doing so, in the hands of the business designed to profit from their instruction.

Are you denying that doesn’t sound like it stinks?

You’re right about word of mouth to be fair Kaos… There is a school that I’m aware of where the customers are treated appallingly and has been under the gaze of the DSA several times, however, the school continues to work.

If anyone wants transparency on what is expected on CBT then have a look at the DSA’s site. You can even download a copy of the ATB Training Manual which all Instructors and schools must follow. You can look at The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999, Schedule 12, Regulation 59 which identifies the required Elements of an approved training course.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/pdfs/uksi_19992864_en.pdf Page 83 of the document.

You say that the perception of bias is an issue when customers are required to return to complete CBT, but that is partly due to the fact that everyone wants to do their CBT in one day and pay about a hundred quid for it. The pressure is then on to get to grips with the course quickly due to the limits of time available. The Driving Standards Agency’s stance on this is very clear, in that they stipulate that a CBT takes as long as necessary to complete and you can only move on to the next element when the required standards have been met. Those are the required standards in the MV(DL)R 1999, Sch 12, Reg 59. So, if a student requires more time to meet these requirements they need to return another day. Anyone wishing to have a one to one course would be accommodated by any school, however, they would expect to pay a premium for that service.

One thing that I do as a matter of course is, when I am discussing how the CBT is going to work in Element A, make it clear about needing to complete each element and that the course may not be completed in one day depending on previous experiences or learning ability and that there may be the need to return to finish it. I also make sure that my students are fully aware of their progress, weaknesses, strengths and short-comings during the day, so if we need to have the discussion about needing another days training it’s not a huge surprise to them.

I would love it if every new CBT student arrived for their course with a copy of the Highway Code (having read it!) and the DSA’s Learning to ride books with an understanding of what’s required of them. It may make doing CBT in one day a bit easier for them, however, we don’t live in a perfect world and most people aren’t prepared for their course, so we have to do the best we can in the time we’ve got.

Ask yourself if you would like your children crossing the road when an unsafe rider is traveling towards them? No? well then some people should be failed if not ready after 1 day CBT. I have failed students and always for the right reason! And they should pay for a return visit because its the instructors time and petrol. I have failed students who would have been dead in hours in left alone on the road without further training. Its a duty of care which all good instructors should practise. I never like to fail anyone because it does cost me money by not being able to sell a full price slot in their place but it would be criminal to pass some people for fear of lost money.

@KAOS - Do you see the worst in everyone or just instructors? have a little faith in some people, it takes more courage than being aggressive!

Must say that when I went down on the road today I was prepared quite well after a bit more training. I passed today nice and smooth and again instructor did his best to explain me everything. Well, maybe I paid a bit more than I expected but at the end I belive that it was well worth it.

I’m glad you’re happy with the outcome of your training.

If you’re going to go on and do your full licence, please get a copy of the DSA’s learning to ride - the essential skills book before training. It’ll make it easier for you to understand what’s required to pass the test…

always a tricky one this but lets look at the flip side i just did a refresher day for a guy who did a cbt at a north london school which will remain nameless so dont ask, he wants to do his das but wanted another day out on a 125, no problem.

during our chat about his riding experience he tells me he passed his cbt 1st time 3 hours site training and 20 mins road riding which is completly against the rules its 2 hours minimum i give all mine 3 hours and the school charged him for extra lessons afterwards :rolleyes:.

basically i have had to redo his cbt all over again, not uncommon he has now booked for das and after a day out with him on the 125 i am happy to put him on one of my bandit 650s.

there are good and bad every where i dont think charging you to return for additional training is wrong but it should have been made clearer to you when you booked, i dont charge if any one needs to come back and iv had a guy come back 4 times so far still not got out on the road its down to the instructor if there not happy saftey wise then going out into traffic is a no go.

well done on getting your cbt in the end

It’s 2 hrs minimum road riding? Was this always the case? I only did about 45mins-1hr because we got taken out in stages…:angry:

Grrr good job I didn’t go back to do my DAS with them…

yep 2 hour minimum road ride followed by a 20 minute assesment have a look at the dsa web site. going out in stages is common take 2 out 1 rider gets swopped every hour so every one gets 2 hours road training then an assesment of course if there are any problems during the road ride then its back to the training site to address them then back out again on the road if possible.

of course some schools are under pressure they have lots of pupils booked in so take short cuts and the road ride suffers its a big problem in the industry.

as i mainly do A1 and DAS when i do cbt i only book 2 pupils in at any one time they gets lots of instruction and the day usually goes well

You should be charged again if the failed you with reason.

is £55 that bad?
125cc rental these days is about £40 a day (cheapest I could find is £45 - http://www.citybikeservice.co.uk/pages/motorcycle%20hire%20page.html)
Petrol - £5
Instructor’s rate - Can be priceless through the knowledge you gain if they are doing it properly.

Iggy, I think the problem is this; where a company makes a profit from doing something and that something is not beneficial to the customer, then you have to consider whether that is an adequate system.

Does not matter whether it is CBT training or providing any other service. Where the profit is derived from a detrimental action towards the customer, that is not a good system.

You are incentivising business to make detrimental decisions against their customers. That can’t ever be a good system.

Of course the flip side to motorcycle training (CBT) is that if you go the other way, the decision is still detrimental. If you incentivise business to pass people, by perhaps forcing retakes to be free, they will pass people, regardless of whether it is safe to do so.

Not a great system we have, where you have to rely upon the honesty and integrity of motorcycle trainers. I can’t honestly propose a better system off the top of my head, but that doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist.

I think you should just have to do a MOD1 on a 125cc bike to be able to ride on L plates. That way you are being assessed by the DSA and there is still profit to be made by the riding school as the MOD 1 is cheap to book.

Whan I did my CBT it was my first time ever on a bike. I couldn’t get the hang of the slow control around the cones etc and me and a women on a scooter were pulled off the course for a couple of hours to practice the slow control (scooter woman was a nutter who kept jamming the throttle fully open and crashing into things!!!). After half-an-hour I’d nailed it and was sent back to the original instructor for the road run where everything came together great. At the time I was gutted to be pulled out of the group - bit of a dent to the pride etc, but I could see where they were coming from and they absolutely wanted everyone to gain their CBT and go out there and be safe. Scooter woman had to come back for another day, but she was an accident waiting to happen. If you progress beyond your CBT, find a good training-school through asking people on here. I’d recommend mine to you but I was there in Oct '05 and it was in Glasgow so not much use to you. Also in Glasgow, it’s guaranteed to piss it down with rain all day every day :hehe:

Kaos… Bearing in mind that I don’t actually know you, and just going off what I’m reading in your posts, I get the impression that you believe the bike training industry to be corrupt??..

CBT is the best training course for a school to make money because we are permitted to run up to four students on each course to each instructor. However, the margins in CBT and DAS training are incredibly tight once you’ve paid for the Instructor, the rent of the school/training pad, maintenance/broken bits, MoT, tax, insurance, complementary riding kit and helmets, professional fees, etc, etc… The market has forced very low prices at the moment with most schools offering CBT for around a hundred pounds, some less… which also eats into those margins. However, most of the schools won’t charge a returning customer full price to complete CBT even though they’re entitled to, which says to me that there is no intention of ripping anyone off… If the intention was there, they’d be charging full price.

The honesty and integrity of Instructors is something that’s hard to manage… There are Instructors out there who, quite frankly, should not be teaching, but the majority of Instructors work in this industry because they want people to learn how to ride a bike and are not directly involved in the financial aspects of the school. So, it is of no interest to the Instructor whether anyone has to return, or everyone completes, other than satisfying the requirements of the course.

I do agree with you that the current way of obtaining your CBT is not great, but it’s what we’ve got for now. Doing the course in a group of four makes it cost effective for the school and for the customer. Some people work and learn well in a group environment and some don’t. Some people can jump on a bike for the first time and ride, and others can’t. But it is the job of the instructor to manage the course and balance the requirements of each customer to make sure they each get value for money and thorough training. CBT looks like an easy day to most observers, but from an Instructors point of view, it’s the most demanding course and the hardest work.

Every organisation could be accused of incentivising a negative outcome for the customer to generate forced return business… You only need to look at the cowboy builders or dodgy motor mechanics that charge for work they’ve not done. It’s up to the DSA to monitor these schools and take action if needed.

I’m going to the Dentist at lunchtime… It’s an appointment that was made after my last one because they didn’t have time to complete the work they needed to do… I’m not sitting here wondering if they are ripping me off and forcing my return because they have some sort of incentive or want to extort more money from me. I acknowledge their reason and understand why I’ve got to go back… One of the biggest problems with CBT is that the student gets told their not progressing to the next element right at the end of their training and not given a chance to work on their weaknesses. It is something that some new “Down Trained” Instructors can be prone to because of a lack of experience. But, if customers did a little research and bought a copy of the DSA’s published material, they would be better prepared themselves…

Give it a couple of years and I think there will be quite significant changes to the way Motorcycle Training is done, both for the Instructors and the customers, but until then we’ve got to do the best with what we have. I for one would like to see changes, but with you Kaos, I can’t propose a better system at the moment either.

I am surprised by you reply Iggy.

You say:

“Kaos… Bearing in mind that I don’t actually know you, and just going off what I’m reading in your posts, I get the impression that you believe the bike training industry to be corrupt??.”

Yet I said specifically:

“Does not matter whether it is CBT training or providing any other service.”

DanielGT put forward a good idea:

“I think you should just have to do a MOD1 on a 125cc bike to be able to ride on L plates. That way you are being assessed by the DSA and there is still profit to be made by the riding school as the MOD 1 is cheap to book.”

Makes sense to me, then the people who are making a profit from you, are not the people that are deciding whether you are good enough.

There’s a whole lot more to riding a motorcycle than just doing a Mod1…

That’s why we have CBT… New riders need to be given information on all aspects of riding including, safety equipment, legal requirements, road and weather conditions, etc etc… It’s not just about being able to control the machine in the cones…

On an CBT you are still being assessed. Instructors are working under the authorisation of the DSA and to the standards of the Elements of an Approved Training Course within the MV(DL)Regs 1999 Sch12 Reg59.

When I run a CBT course I use all the Mod1 exercises with the exception of the Avoidance Exercise, so we pretty much do a Mod1 anyway… with all the other stuff too… :slight_smile:

So Koas… You think EVERYONE is corrupt??.. :Whistling:

Sorry if I misinterpreted you…

Good thread though… :wink:

Yes, I think everyone, who has power, is potentially corrupt and that we should have procedures in place to ensure that this corruption is not able to thrive in the environment in which they hold that power.

I think that is a sensible precaution to take.

If you wanted me to counter you, in the same style in which you have placed the argument:

So you think no-one is corrupt?

When I passed my CBT, I fell off twice on the way home from the test centre :w00t:

NOTHING SERIOUS???

jezuz christ, i’m really really glad you had to go back for more training. if you are not in control of your machine, ESPECIALLY when it comes to decrease speed and come to a halt, you really shouldnt be allowed on the road.