Slightly complex case where I received the NIP and I was not the rider. I can prove I wasn’t the rider (and the actual rider is happy to admit responsibility - it’s an extended family member) but I didn’t give permission so want to avoid being charged for that.
I’ve completed the NIP already and the frickin police have REJECTED my nomination (i.e. they think they are calling my bluff). I’m going to reaffirm my nomination, but might want some advice from a lawyer to avoid getting the police all excited…
Try this guy he wasnt cheap to be honest but he was worth every penny http://www.speedingsolicitor.co.uk/ alternatively you could sign up an put a post up on http://www.pepipoo.com/ as i know a few motoring lawyers , police officers an civilians in the know give out advice on all things to do with motoring offence’s .
Extended family member took your bike without your consent and was caught speeding. Assuming said member was insured what is the problem, it should be a straight forward FPN for a SP30/50 £60 fine and 3 penalty points. Unless the speeding was excessive to the extent it needs to be dealt with in Court, in which case it could be as many as 6 points.
Or are there other factors?No insuranceNo licenceFailing to stop
taking without consent is technically theft so if that is your statement, the police can prosecute him for this
I know cause I remember watching this on one of those Road Wars programs - on an online forum that’s as good as getting my law degree and barrister qualifications
Well it’s straight forward from my point of view but they are suspicious because the relative is from abroad, so yes they will want to do him for the speeding, no insurance and TWOC (or him for speeding and no insurance and me for permitting), but since he isn’t here that isn’t gonna trouble him much. Because of this teflon attitude the police are always going to assume I’m making the whole thing up to keep the points of my licence (which is currently clean). I think they would be MORE suspicious if I was already on 9 points of course but that isn’t the case. The only sticky bit is if they try and say I permitted him to drive. I didn’t but they will expect me to prove that. I suppose the smart move would have been to take the 3 points and 60 quid fine but it isn’t the truth so no I will probably spend more time and money clearing the whole thing up (because they will have the default setting of “lying scumbag” when they talk to me).
Yeah and for that reason I was thinking of doing co comment to the whole thing (basically to spare him the twoc hassle), but it seems that just makes me look like I have something to hide…
Whether you gave permission for him to ride your bike or not, what has that got to do with the Police?
If I give you permission to ride my motorcycle, it is YOUR job to ensure that you do so legally. It is not my job to ensure that you are legally entitled to ride my motorcycle.
I don’t see how they can do your family friend for a TWOC, considering subsection 6 of the Theft Act…which relates to taking without consent a motor vehicle.
“A person does not commit an offence under this section by anything done in the belief that he has lawful authority to do it or that he would have the owner’s consent if the owner knew of his doing it and the circumstances of it.”
I am assuming that you would have given your consent had you been asked and that your family member was aware of the fact that you would have given your consent had he been able to contact you at that time.
Unless there is some law that I am unaware of, which is not beyond the realms of possibility, I am not memory man on traffic law, but basic principles of the law are that the person taking the action is responsible for the legality of those actions.
Whether you gave permission or not is, as far as I can tell, entirely irrelevant.
Just about to send you the full statement - but about the permission and would I have given it. Well on a personal level yes I would have given him permission, no issue at all with him using my stuff - he was a guest living in my house for two weeks and he is family. HOWEVER, I wouldn’t actually have given him permission unless he was going to be properly insured - so if he had been able to provide insurance cover, yes I would have consented. Obviously letting him use the bike around my road (private road) probably gave him the impression that he was cool to ride on any roads, since he wouldn’t be aware of the nuances between public roads and private roads. However, did he steal anything from me - hell no.
You are right, now I narrowed it down to a single act, s143(1)(b)
“a person must not cause or permit any other person to use a motor vehicle on a road [F2or other public place]unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that other person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act.”
I don’t think it applies in this case, since he neither permitted nor caused the other person to use his Motorcycle, but it does exist
Stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either shop the relative for taking without consent, or pretend he did have consent and risk being prosecuted himself.
I’d be tempted to land it all on the relative. The number of foreign HGV and other drivers that get away with openly taking the pi55 here in the knowledge that it’ll never follow them home makes me think he’s got a fair chance of never hearing about it.
The simple way of explaining how the law works on this is as follows…
A) You did not give permission for him to ride your motorbike, therefore he is guilty of TDA (Taking and Driving Away), but may have a defence that he assumes you would have given him permission to do so if he had asked. He is still guilty of Riding without Insurance, Not According to his Licence or whatever else he was pulled up for, as this is down to him to make sure he is covered (I’m assuming he was caught by speed camera as opposed to being stopped, or you would have had an impounded vehicle). You are not liable for him being covered if he took it without you knowing etc…
B) You gave him permission to ride your motorbike, in which case you are require by law to make sure he has the necesary licence requirements and Insurance to ride the vehicle. Failure to do so means you are guilty of the offence under the Road Traffic Act.
So, if he is willing to take the points and cover the fine, take it to court and go down that route. He will more than likely be required to attend court as well, and may face prosecution for the TDA aspect, at which point he will get his chance in interview or court to use his defence of thinking you would have allowed him to take the bike.
As for the police being dubious as to your nomination, wouldn’t you be the same if you were told the same? “I nominate a member of family who does not live in this country and cannot attend court to confirm or deny my side of the story!”…
Hope this gets sorted, and next time tell him to take the bus, or get him insured! ;)
Hi Roadrunner, yeah A) is the way I am going. The question of whether I am lying or not about him riding is simple - the gatso camera he was caught by (Lower Thames Street has a second front facing camera that is triggered by the main gatso camera. The police obviously think I’m lying but their own second photo will show I am not (since I am considerably larger round the middle than my relative).
Well, that shoud be a simple enough case to prove in court then mate. I wouldn’t worry too much about it, as the prosecution in a case with such strong evidence to prove you were not the rider would be extremely stuipid to try and dismiss this evidence. Then it’s down to the system to deal with how to prosecute your family member.
Just a quick question here how are you supposed to check this? like how much detail are should you go into…for example my insurance allows me to ride other bikes third party…should I show my friend my insurance certificate before I ride their bike?
I have also allowed my friends to ride my bike/car as they have told me they are covered… should I be checking their insurance documents?
And they are so easy to fake I guess it wouldnt matter what I said I saw!
