# Bus Lane usage - protest time? **URL:** \ **Category:** Off-topic\ **Created:** [9 February 2008 08:41 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008 "2008-02-09T08:41:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LiM](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@LiM](https://londonbikers.com/u/LiM)\ **Post date:** [15 February 2008 17:57 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/81 "2008-02-15T17:57:44Z")
I still don’t get it. How can revealing the reason for a decision compromise the ‘frankness’ of reasons for future decisions? I’m totally confused! If a decision is to be made contrary to the results of a TfL survey that turns out to have prooved a safety benefit then wouldn’t the decision also be contrary to the TfL statement that ‘the safety of London’s road users is paramount’. I read ‘paramount’ to mean that safety is ‘the most important thing’.:unsure: ---
**Author:** ![MacP](https://londonbikers.com/user_avatar/londonbikers.com/macp/32/31945_2.png) [@MacP](https://londonbikers.com/u/MacP)\ **Post date:** [15 February 2008 18:03 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/82 "2008-02-15T18:03:53Z")
I think what he means is that any advice given to the Mayor or other similar official is regarded as being outside the scope of freedom of information. If for example Mr X at TFL advised the Mayor that he didn’t think it was a good idea because of XYZ. Now if Mr X knew that anything he said might be released to the public he might thnk twice about being frank and open in his advice as he might not want to look bad in the public domain. So by not releasing this info - the advice around a decision you ensure that Mr X will be frank in his advice as he doesn’t have to worry about his thoughts being published. Well that’s what it sounds like to me anyway… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LiM](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@LiM](https://londonbikers.com/u/LiM)\ **Post date:** [15 February 2008 18:23 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/83 "2008-02-15T18:23:45Z")
Thanks, that is clearer. My point is that TfL has already said that they will be making a decision on this issue based on safety (which they say is paramount). Since the draft report has been subjected to ‘further analysis’ then when the final report is released (I assume it would have to be made public?) it should show that motorbikes using bus lanes is safer. If this is the outcome then I can’t see what else a mayoral advisor could cite that would outweigh the ‘paramount’ issue of safety.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Giuliano](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/ec9cab/32.png) [@Giuliano](https://londonbikers.com/u/Giuliano)\ **Post date:** [15 February 2008 19:45 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/84 "2008-02-15T19:45:57Z")
Speaking from the other side of the fence again - yes that is the sort of thing. The law allows you get facts and reasons for decisions, but not the advice or discussions that lead to that. For example, I am currently writing speeches and briefing notes for a Minister for a debate in committee on Tuesday. As part of the advice I give I am expected to anticipate any backbench or opposition arguments, and provide counter arguments. Part of that might include advice on what to do if there is a lot of pressure in certain areas to make concessions. For example, on what concessions might be easier to implement, what Treasury are more likely to approve funding for etc. I couldn’t give that advice if there was a chance it could end up in the public domain because it would make it impossible to have a debate on the issues as any debate would simply concentrate on what the Government’s fall back positions were, which we would have just announced so would automatically lose. Imagine if MAG had to publish out negotiating strategy in advance. You can’t run any democratic system on complete openness unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![LiM](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/59ef9b/32.png) [@LiM](https://londonbikers.com/u/LiM)\ **Post date:** [15 February 2008 21:18 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/85 "2008-02-15T21:18:48Z")
> [@](#): > > ## **Giuliano (15/02/2008)** > > Speaking from the other side of the fence again - yes that is the sort of thing. The law allows you get facts and reasons for decisions, but not the advice or discussions that lead to that. For example, I am currently writing speeches and briefing notes for a Minister for a debate in committee on Tuesday. As part of the advice I give I am expected to anticipate any backbench or opposition arguments, and provide counter arguments. Part of that might include advice on what to do if there is a lot of pressure in certain areas to make concessions. For example, on what concessions might be easier to implement, what Treasury are more likely to approve funding for etc. I couldn’t give that advice if there was a chance it could end up in the public domain because it would make it impossible to have a debate on the issues as any debate would simply concentrate on what the Government’s fall back positions were, which we would have just announced so would automatically lose. Imagine if MAG had to publish out negotiating strategy in advance. You can’t run any democratic system on complete openness unfortunately. Interesting. I find it amusing that Government can put such effort into avoiding challenges to the crux of a policy (when you say ‘fall back position’ I assume you mean the ‘real’ reason for the policy?). I can’t help thinking that if a policy is basically ‘right’ in the democratic sense i.e. that it would be acceptable to the majority, then government has nothing to be scared of in being completely open…but then, who am I to say! ---
**Author:** ![Giuliano](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/ec9cab/32.png) [@Giuliano](https://londonbikers.com/u/Giuliano)\ **Post date:** [15 February 2008 22:20 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/86 "2008-02-15T22:20:20Z")
No, by fall back position I mean that a lobby is asking for 10x something which is far beyond what the public would find acceptable and would have a serious impact on the viability of a certain kind of business. Ministers are advised that taking everything into account, including the benefits and impact on business the ideal is in the range of 4x to 6x. I might advise that the initial position should be 4x but that Ministers be prepared to concede on 6x in certain circumstances. It is standard in any sort of negotiation to have fall back positions or back pocket measures[1]. If my advice became public it would make it impossible for Ministers to negotiate properly. [1] Back pocket measure - in the above case, to win an argument to get say x4 you might offer x4 and when you get resistance offer x2 of something else as a sweetener [2]. [2] Sweetener - something offered in negotiation/marketing to make an offer more attractive to the other party. ---
**Author:** ![steveCBR11XX](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@steveCBR11XX](https://londonbikers.com/u/steveCBR11XX)\ **Post date:** [16 February 2008 16:46 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/87 "2008-02-16T16:46:59Z")
In the sun today just what we all been saying Why can’t we use bus lanes? Published: Today \ ![rigTeaserImage](http://www.thesun.co.uk/img/buttons/btn-add-your-comments.gif) BIKES using bus lanes would save lives – but it seems London mayor Ken Livingstone isn’t interested. A leaked draft report showed that accidents involving motorcyclists nearly halved on trial routes in the capital where they were allowed to use the lanes. The report, commissioned by Transport for London, also showed collisions between cyclists and motorcyclists fell. The findings of the three-year study were due to be published last September. But the British Motorcyclists Federation says it may have been “suppressed” for political reasons. It intends to make a formal complaint against the Mayor’s office. Only bikers failed to meet a 40 per cent casualty reduction target in London. BMF chairman Anna Zee said: “Lives are being put at risk for political expediency.” What more proof does Ken also chairman of Transport for London, need over motorbikes and bus lanes? ---
**Author:** ![Giuliano](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/ec9cab/32.png) [@Giuliano](https://londonbikers.com/u/Giuliano)\ **Post date:** [16 February 2008 17:29 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/88 "2008-02-16T17:29:28Z")
I think there is a door being kicked open somewhere! ---
**Author:** ![jimc](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jimc](https://londonbikers.com/u/jimc)\ **Post date:** [17 February 2008 00:38 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/89 "2008-02-17T00:38:26Z")
There are several doors being demolished right now. However, as it seems many LB members don’t have a clue what MAG and BMF are doing behind the scenes, we have these chirpings here, which by and large distract and obfuscate, and do not help one jot. If you want to have a say in (or listen into) the future of PTWs in the UK or just London, personally invest in a lobby-group that does have a say, and tune in. With luck in a few months LB and some other Internet forums may get plugged-in directly to these groups. Whether they would want us (LB) to be involved depends on some responsibility being shown here and now. This is not a blast at the idea of a legal ride note, it is a blast at some of the ‘protest till they hurt’ merchants, because ‘they’ won’t get hurt, we will, possibly irretrievably. Tread carefully, this is a very political subject with many egos at stake (sadly). ---
**Author:** ![Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/u/Boxertwin)\ **Post date:** [17 February 2008 00:49 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/90 "2008-02-17T00:49:55Z")
> [@](#): > > ## **jimc (17/02/2008)** > > However, as it seems many LB members don’t have a clue what MAG and BMF are doing behind the scenes, we have these chirpings here, which by and large distract and obfuscate, and do not help one jot. Jim, with all due respect, how are we supposed to know what’s going on behind the scenes unless someone enlightens us? Are you in a position to do so? Why should what we discuss distract & obfuscate the issue? I see that a lot of people are resentful & disappointed and that is leading to a lot of anger being shown, but that is only to be expected by a community of road users who feel that their safety & concerns are being marginalised and ignored. I am certainly not in favour of action that will bring the biking community into disrepute, yet I am frustrated by the lack of progress in this issue. T I’m a bmf member myself…I have seen the last mag where they’ve hit out at TfL, but nothing spectacular struck me from their campaign. This week’s MCN says the Conservatives will be asking more questions in Parliament…let’s hope that leads somewhere productive. ---
**Author:** ![jimc](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jimc](https://londonbikers.com/u/jimc)\ **Post date:** [17 February 2008 01:09 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/91 "2008-02-17T01:09:45Z")
I’ll repost my last paragraph: > [@](#): > > ## **jimc (17/02/2008)** > > This is not a blast at the idea of a legal ride note, it is a blast at some of the ‘protest till they hurt’ merchants, because ‘they’ won’t get hurt, we will, possibly irretrievably. Tread carefully, this is a very political subject with many egos at stake (sadly). If you are a member of the BMF and haven’t been kept up to date, then you are just like me as a fellow member of the BMF - in the dark, as usual. MAG has been a bit more up-front, and (as I have linked to earlier in this thread and elsewhere) is applying the starter button to legal proceedings. The NetWork consolidated reports are never less than a month old, and day-to-day press releases are very much up-to-date. I am very definitely NOT having a go at you in any way whatsoever, your ideas have been good (if hijacked a bit by others) but now is not quite the time for a ‘ride’ on this issue. If ‘Bikes in Bus Lanes’ gets thrown out to appease the cyclist’s lobby then expect some real sparks… In the meantime there are some who are quietly lobbying those who have influence to try to ensure sanity and safety prevails over slinky lycra. In the main it is MAG members who pay these individual’s salaries. ---
**Author:** ![Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/u/Boxertwin)\ **Post date:** [17 February 2008 07:37 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/92 "2008-02-17T07:37:12Z")
Jim, I didn’t take it as you having a go at me. I just wanted to know what you were referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/u/Boxertwin)\ **Post date:** [18 February 2008 11:27 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/93 "2008-02-18T11:27:04Z")
okay we’re back to square one on this, i still think that a **peaceful** and **legal** protest is the way forward, now i also understand that [londonbikers.com](http://londonbikers.com) sees the issue as a political one and does not want involved and i totally respect this… My question to the moderators / board owner is do you have a problem with people discussing it here or not? I ask, as I see that a lot of people would like to get something going…I’d like to see if we could do something but NOT under the LB Banner… ---
**Author:** ![MacP](https://londonbikers.com/user_avatar/londonbikers.com/macp/32/31945_2.png) [@MacP](https://londonbikers.com/u/MacP)\ **Post date:** [18 February 2008 11:52 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/94 "2008-02-18T11:52:42Z")
Continue to discuss whether a protest is the right or wrong way forward.Continue to discuss whether supporting the exisiting lobbying groups is a good or bad idea and also how that can be best achieved. Highlighting action being undertaken by groups like MAG or BMF is fine as is the report (or lack of report) and the way people think it’s being presented - these are all important issues and should be highlighted on LB. However planning of an independent protest on the LB forums isn’t going to be on though as it links LB with the event - it’s entirely different if it was action taken by or supported by MAG or BMF. ---
**Author:** ![Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Boxertwin](https://londonbikers.com/u/Boxertwin)\ **Post date:** [18 February 2008 12:18 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/95 "2008-02-18T12:18:00Z")
That’s a clear enough answer…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![oldguy](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@oldguy](https://londonbikers.com/u/oldguy)\ **Post date:** [18 February 2008 22:40 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/96 "2008-02-18T22:40:20Z")
Bloody hell, I’m confused. I’m always happy to take the “legitimate” route to see what MAG and BMF acieve. (I just wish the BMF would talk to me.) If/when that fails due to some apparently pretty fixed mind sets in the Mayor’s office and Transport against Londoners, count me in for a \*\*positive \*\* publicity demonstrations. Be very careful. Those of use that demonstrated against one of the worlds nastier little wars (Vietnam) didn’t get any sympathy. But we were right. Once “\*\*\*\*\*\*\* hippy”, now Oldguy. (Watch “Bright shining lie” DVD to find out why I thought that \*\*\*\* was wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![jimc](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jimc](https://londonbikers.com/u/jimc)\ **Post date:** [18 February 2008 23:56 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/97 "2008-02-18T23:56:00Z")
It’s not just BMF not talking to you - TfL won’t talk with the BMF apparently. ☹ At least they do with MAG to a certain value of ‘talk’. ---
**Author:** ![bluelagos](https://londonbikers.com/user_avatar/londonbikers.com/bluelagos/32/30388_2.png) [@bluelagos](https://londonbikers.com/u/bluelagos)\ **Post date:** [19 February 2008 07:28 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/98 "2008-02-19T07:28:04Z")
Like 99% of posters, I think it ludicrous that a life saving measure hasn’t been adopted - and this should surely be the crux of any campaign / protest. Is it actually illegal to walk / push your bike in a bus lane? If not, why not have a few bikers pushing their bikes along a lane - with a stretcher / coffin - or something to represent the dead bikers / cyclists and pedestrains who continue to die - in part due to the continued intransigence (sp?) of those in power. All a bit pointless unless you can get some TV / press coverage. The politicians won’t budge - unless the public want them too - and highlighting to the public that a change in law could save cyclists and pedestrian lives - that could be a way forward? ---
**Author:** ![good\_job](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@good\_job](https://londonbikers.com/u/good_job)\ **Post date:** [19 February 2008 10:40 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/99 "2008-02-19T10:40:18Z")
Dont get me started about Dick Turpin (aka red ken) his motto seems to be less for more where bikers and motorists are concerned I commute a 50 mile round trip every day and what i have noticed is that almost every car is about vectra / astra / mondeo / focus size most will have from 1400cc to 2000cc engines they take up about 6 meters long by 2 meters wide with 1 person inside he/she will have the heater / aircon blasting away (using more fuel) there avarage journey will take 1hr to 1 1/2 hrs twice a daythey will spend at least 1/2 that time stationry. The same commute on a bike will take less than 1/2 the time most engine sizes will be between 125cc to 600cc with no little luxurys to waste our fuel on, we will not be sat in traffic instead we will be on our way leaving the road for the next user, we will only be using a small amount of fuel by comparrison to cars and only taking up a quater of the space. I do not believe any of these statistics that every body keeps on about thera not worth the paper they are written on they are all screened and edited to suit what ever cause they are produced for if they were a true reflection of things then they should be more or less be the same.Any presure or lobby group or goverment body that takes a balanced view shuold know that bikes make more since when they are trying to cut back on congestion and pollution 4 bikes for 1 car (4for1).The real danger is if these narrow minded people with in these orginasitions get there way we will be off the road. At the moment bikes go free in to London but for how long if ken gets back as mayor I know where my vote will be going and it will not be ken. Just a tought but any canditate that would fight our corner would get my vote. ---
**Author:** ![adam\_fireblade](https://londonbikers.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/46a35a/32.png) [@adam\_fireblade](https://londonbikers.com/u/adam_fireblade)\ **Post date:** [19 February 2008 21:46 UTC](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008/100 "2008-02-19T21:46:16Z")
its murder bikes dont cause congestion !!! M4 we can use the bus lane on there yet to see a bus on it and where are the bus stops !!! A 23 we can use bus lanes there !!! so why do the government continue to put our lives and wallets at risk !!! oh thats right to line there fat cat wallets Ec 2 is the worst place i know of 4 of us got done in the same day all with in 12 hours so we worked for nothin that day lol [Previous page](https://londonbikers.com/t/bus-lane-usage-protest-time/73008.md?page=4)