The wonders of retro logic!
Or as Monty Python put it…
“We’ve found a witch, can we burn her?”
WITCH:
I’m not a witch. I’m not a witch.
BEDEVERE:
Uh, but you are dressed as one.
WITCH:
They dressed me up like this.
CROWD:
Augh, we didn’t! We didn’t…
WITCH:
And this isn’t my nose. It’s a false one.
BEDEVERE:
Well?
VILLAGER #1:
Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEVERE:
The nose?
VILLAGER #1:
And the hat, but she is a witch!
VILLAGER #2:
Yeah!
CROWD:
We burn her! Right! Yeaaah! Yeaah!
Mark my words everybody…it may not happen yet…BUT IT WILL HAPPEN!! theres gonna be a revolution
well chances are if these guys are innocent…then once the investigation is over and done with…end of subject, we wont ever hear about them again (e.g. the guy who was shot by police in east london!)
but if they are terrorists…then boy I for one will be sick of it being plastered all over the news for years and years…!
Why can’t we just get “good news”…like…
“Fish survives epic battle with no air after falling out of a fish bowl”
DONG…
“Drivers face death row if found to spill diesel on our roads”
DONG…
“Bill passed to allow Motorcyclists to run their bikes as fast as the manufactures intended”
BLOODY POLITICS!!! Lets show em…
How about organising a ride out (rally) in the name of ‘Bikers of Britain’, celebrate our ‘Britishness’…that will show the numpties who are planning to hurt us that …
WE WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED BY THEIR EVIL WAYS…
either that or we call the GHOST BUSTERS…or the A-Team!!
looks like the revolution is already started!!
i say make every person that has joined our country from the outside pledge their alleigence to great britian…
which will make everyone under the age of thirty elligable for natinal service…(IE…365 days)
then…if they conspire against our/their country…its treason…thus hanging…
then…altho im gonna get into strife for saying this…close down the mosks…i know its a bit harsh…but when in rome…i feel that it would be a hienus crime to build a church in the country’s most frequented by muslims…their would be outrage…so why do we obide by this?
and also…this country and quite a few of its citizens are hypocrits to the hilt…how can we combat and erase this racisam malarky when we have sepretist organisations…IE…the Black comdey awards…ect…ect…whats wrong with an all rounder?..
i spoke about this to a colluge today and he agrees completeley…hes black and said he couldnt get his head around black history week …its pointless and it seperates people…good point i say…
so for these ppl to try to kidnapp a british soldier and behead him…i say stick them in the bluddy bay and let em rot…even a wiff of this sorta thing should not be tolorated…atall!!!..and lets give all the support to my ex colluges out to war…easy to slag ppl off when your at a computer anan walk down the street at any time any day…these bad ppl want you dead guys…plain and simple…just for being civilised…dont anyone find this just a tad bit disturbing?
rant over peeps
not so smiled
.
But Smiled, most of the solutions you have just suggested are in fact in breach of Human Rights.
In this country you have a great number of rights, and to derogate from those is the end of a tolerant society and a step towards totalitarianism.
Sure there is a need to protect the nation, but at what cost to society? What about the erosion of your civil liberties?
It still remains that these men are innocent until proven guilty.
Not only were the forest gate brothers blatantly guilty of involvement with terrorism, but one of them was also caught with child porn. Maybe he just couldnt wait for his suicide bomnbers special bonus reward of 50 virgins [and the additional 30 little boys they curiously keep on forgetting to mention…]
Just because something cannot be proved in a court of law does not mean they are innocent. The security services have spent years infiltrating these organisations and know far more than they can ever tell.
Smiled, I just don’t get your logic… Isn’t it democratic freedoms that make life here worth defending? To start throwing those away would be an act of national suicide. Indeed I would go as far as to say it would be a gross act of cowardice in the face of adversity.
sorry mini but what about the rights of the people that are affected buy these terrorists and there suporters,this so called human rights and racist card is played all to often,its just a smoke screen that some people hide behind, if your innocent you’ve nothing to fear…and as for a multicultural sociaty what about that report earlier in the week that some groups want there own independent governing bodies and laws within the uk W T F,if thay want to live in that kind of society then why not live in a country that support it…o sorry the social benefit and nhs and all the rest of the freebies arn’t available are they… rant over!
“if your innocent you’ve nothing to fear…”
That phrase irritates and terrifies me in equal measures. I’ve seen it used so often recently, and its just shorthand for “Be a good lamb, shut up and accept whatever crap we throw at you”.
McCarthyism perverted the language of patriotism to conduct its witch hunt and if we want to continue to live in a democracy then its against such lazy, cheap, and expediant attitudes that we have to be vigilant.
Granted, and that’s why there is legislation against incitement to racial hatred etc. But that’s not what we’re discussing.
The point that we’re debating here is simply a matter of ‘innocent until proven guilty’. But alas the freedom of the press v a right to a private life are at odds again by dint of the fact that these men, without even being formally charged, are being held up to be terrorists.
Until such time that they are charged of plotting an act of terrorism, they are just like any other citizen. Once they are charged then they are prisoners on remand. And not until they are found guilty by a court of law, are they terrorists. The same applies to anyone who is arrested for any crime. That is the way system operates.
The very same debate, albeit it lower key, is also happening about alleged sex offenders.
This is not a debate about morality, but more overly about laws and acting within them.
No, I meant when we napalm their villages again. Cause and effect etc.
Besides, these namby pamby types living in birmingham and harping on about how bad they have it and how their views aren’t being heard? Wait till they are nonces in prison and see how hard it is then (don’t drop that soap in the shower boys!). And why aren’t they jihadding it up in Afghanistan rather than trying to behead people here? Oh, that’s right, the napalm. Wimps.
You Have the right to remain silent
you have the right to legal aid
you have no head
Crap I knew there was something missing
Human rights BLLAAAGGGHHHHHHH so if I plot to remove your head thats ok until I do it.
I think smiled is right why live in the west if you oppose it.
Our troops are getting shot at by people who dont even know what they are fighting for anymore, they say its Islam I say they enjoy a good old blood bath civil war, I give up on the whole middle east shambles, maybe they should just have a big game of paint ball in the middle of the desert.
I was laughing my head off 'til I got to the second half of your post.
Anyway, plotting is ‘conspiracy’, but is it too much to ask that we actually have a trial first?
You know, twelve good men and true… Though we’re enlightened enough to include women as well these days…
Or did something happen while I wasn’t looking… 
Ok, everyone here has valid points.
I believe the West is incredibly guilty of gross and indescribalely disgracefully disrespectful acts against Muslim communities in the Middle East and Asia.
AND
I firmly believe that people from those communities have a god forsaken DUTY to respect our culture if they choose to move here and live here.
Otherwise WTF are you doing here?
There’s too little respect from both cultures to each other and DAMMIT chopping off heads doesn’t fix it, but nor does bombing cultures back to the Stone Age.
Anyone in here REALLY want to stand up and say the culture that you represent ISN’T guilty in this disgraceful situation we live in currently…?
Come on…you all are so righteous? Let’s hear from someone who is 100% right and whose culture has no dirt or blood on their hands…
Let’s go!
Oooh I can feel some flamey rants comin on…bring it on! 
I love a good debate!
Im with you on that one Toby!
LOL - its a boring day in the office, otherwise I’d avoid this topic like the plague. Too annoying, too likely it’ll wreck my day…
But in for a penny… I am genuinely disturbed by certain currents in this country. People seem too willing to give up freedoms and rights that only exist due to a century’s worth of struggle.
And why will they give these things up so easily? Because a minority of religious fanatics disturb their daily illusion of a seamless reality. Let’s be frank, 9/11 was shocking, but a bit of a lucky strike. 21st of July in London: four bombs, four failed detonations. We are faced with a bunch of chancers who can’t even put together a single effective weapon and for this we will tear up the very things that are of value to us? If we’re that pathetic then no one really has to try very hard. Sow a few stories here, sow a few there… defeat by gossip.
I’m in agreement: there is no one nation that is innocent. History tells us that nations tend to be born from blood, led by “the worst off-sloughings of the planet”, and maintained by terror and violence, both covertly and overtly. And I do not believe in anyone’s god.
But I do believe there are certain things that reprieve us, all of us, from the fascism of superstition and the violence of plain old stupidity. And ‘innocent before proven guilty’ is a good bloody start.
nihil novi nisi commune consensu - nothing about us without us
And yet…how do you deal with “guilty in the past”?
Ie - the convicted peado whose served their time?
The fundamentalist religious group that has “allegedly” reformed?
The burglar or rapist whose done their porridge…
Suddenly innocent until proven guilty is not as solid…cos they WERE proven guilty…how then do you reconcile their past with “society’s fears” and the daunting, media-fuelled uncertainty of the present?
We KNOW funamentalist Islamic groups have beheaded hostages for effect.
We KNOW that these groups do exist in the UK despite the pacifist Muslim majority saying they abhor these acts as much as non-Muslims.
But bearing this in mind…theoretically of course, how should a nation of people that DON’T believe in beheadings and hostage taking respond to a community of people who have taken up residence in the UK and whose community has a “guilty in the past” hsitory of this sort of event taking place?
Fine most Muslims don’t do this sort of thing. That point is accepted. But there are some who do and plenty of proof that that is the case. So how should non-Muslim Britons respond?
And don’t forget this is all theoretical discussion cos, to this date, they still haven’t proved that the plot was actually going to happen. But go with the discussion…I’m interested in Muslim views on this…
Its a mistake to assume that life can ever be risk free. Justice can never cure all the ills of society; it merely ameliorates them.
The convicted paedophile who has served his time has, well… served his time. That s/he may be a repeat offender is something we have to allow for in our daily lives. I never understood Megan’s Law (“Every parent should have the right to know if a dangerous sexual predator moves into their neighborhood.”). Er… so what are you going to do with this information? Does it mean its fine to let your kids run around with any stranger if you think the neighbourhood is ‘uninfected’? There’s a lot of danger in the world, so are you going to invent laws to circumscribe every possible threat? That is not the purpose of law and its far better that you teach your children to recognise danger and act accordingly…
Fundamentalist groups are under no obligation to reform, merely to appease your (my) liberal view of the world. However, the space should always be available for us to point and laugh at their intellectual shortcomings…