2009 R1 long tech discussion

[Afro]

Tim Radley of Race Developments UK spent a long time convincing some yanks on the R1 forum that a full power run on a dyno, and the subsequent graph, doesn’t show the full potential and flexibility of an engine.

This discussion came about as a result of a backlash towards Akrapovic posting a dyno graph of an untuned 2009 R1 using their slip on or full system (not sure). Some people on the forum were thinking the motor on the new bike would be no good from the result.

The general consensus was that the bike was not tuned for the pipes (there’s no power commander available yet for example) as another run produced better results when I few things were tuned (read at the end).

Anyway…I found the discussion interesting, so here’s a copy and paste.

Tim Radley

I agree with everything you say but it is quite clear reading just 2 pages of replies here that there will be a big portion of people who are only interested in dyno numbers. Some of us know dyno numbers and real world are two very different things, but some do not. Unfortuntately many will probably fail to realise the potential of this awesome machine because they just want SHOW and BRAGGING RIGHTS - hence hating on looks and dyno numbers. That is such shame.

As for how these things ride. As Diel said, the grip is fantastic. But i’m talking on a racetrack here where the bike is being pushed to the edge which again does not happen on the street much. Its harder to highside a big bang because when it lets go its much slower. And they are very deceptive just in the way a big twin 1000 is, you feel like you are going slow until you look at the speedo. This again is great for you track guys because it means your brain spends more time on stategy and lines than it does on a bike that feels stupid fast.

Look at Yamaha in Motogp. They have one of the least powerful engines over the last 2 seasons but have more bike in the top 10 than anyone else. That surely has to say something for their ability and knowledge. So i would not write the bike off just yet.

Tim Radley

Ok, we seem to have some fantasy talk going on here so let me please try and enlighten a few of you to some facts. I will try and explain something about dyno charts. Some of you may thank me for the insight, some will think me an arrogant ass who is talking down to them. To the latter, please enjoy your k9 Gsxr1000 or zx10 next year.

What you have in this thread so far are dyno charts for 100% wide open throttle.
Pretty much all dyno charts you will see on forums will show 100% throttle only.
Why? Because it usually shows max rated power.
What are the problems with this? The bike spends almost no time at 100% throttle.
What you see below is the datalogging for a 195bhp superbike. The rider is say the UK equivalent or perhaps Aaron Yates or Eric Bostrom so we are talking someone with a hundred times more talent that you or i.
So they can get the throttle open much faster than you or i right?
So it would be fairly safe to say that you or i would spend a lot less time at 100% throttle than them if we did a track day and even more so on the road right?

The red trace is rpm, the green trace is throttle position.
Now a quick overview for you:-

It spends around 10 seconds at 100% throttle for a 1min 30sec lap. The track has some fast straights but even on the straights its often hard to reach full throttle.
100% throttle is never reached until at least 10,600rpm
There is considerably more time spent with the throttle at 0% that 100%
Most of the throttle openings in between turns are reaching a maximum of 30%-40% throttle opening.

I think the biggest thing you might want to draw from this is the full throttle not arriving until 10,600rpm. Now go back and compare your dyno charts for the 08 vs 09 R1. Tell me what they look like from 10,600 to the limiter at 100% throttle.
And for those of you sat there saying “well i slam my throttle open at 5000”. Please now go out on your bike, be honest with yourself now, put it in 2nd or 3rd gear, sit at 5000rpm then snap the throttle wide open as fast as you can. Shall i send card, flowers or chocolates to your hospital???

The point of all this boring spiel? 100% dyno charts are like saying your dick is 10 inches long but failing to point out its only as wide as a straw.

Hope some of you find this information useful and that everyone enjoys their bikes next year regardless of what you choose. I think every 1000 is too fast for the road personally, but hey what do i know.

Tim Radley

I’d like to add some more information as the whole R1 deal seem to still not working out for some here and other forums. Maybe some of you guys should link this post to those other forums as this will be useful information for all.

Somebody on this thread has already pointed out something very important about the R1 which many are missing. It has fly by wire throttle.
This means in simple terms that there is a map inside the ecu for throttle opening that yamaha have created to aid you in riding quickly.
The throttle butterflies are not connected directly to your wrist so if you ask for more throttle at a certain rpm than Yamaha deem fit for you then it will restrict itself.
There is also another reason, they want to keep the airspeed up in the ports. Open the throttle fully as 2,000rpm and the engine will accelerate slower initially than if you had opened it 40% open.
Below you will see a map for a 2006 R6 which uses the same system although different mapping of the throttle. I don’t have an 08 R1 log to hand so this will have to suffice.
This graph is showing how much throttle opening the computer gives the engine while i was holding it 100% open from 2,000rpm on the dyno. So as it accelerates, the throttle blades open more and more by the computer. I am not moving the throttle at all, it is already wide open. So for example, you are riding your R6 on the road and snap the throttle wide open at 6,000rpm, the computer decides that you only require about 54% throttle. As the revs come up it gives you more. Do you get the picture now?

Now, the problem we have here in looking at dyno charts is that say on the cbr1000rr for example, it has no fly by wire. So you get on the dyno, mash the throttle open at 7,000rpm and it gives you (looking at real dyno charts here) 95bhp. Whereas the 08 R1 at the same point is giving you 86bhp at the same point. Now all the people on forums are saying "**** man the R1 is down 9bhp at 7,000rpm. NO IT IS NOT. The computer is pulling the engines potential back and giving you 86bhp for a reason. The dude on the cbr1000rr probably has too much power at that point whereas Mr Rossi from Texas (distant cousin) has pulled a bike length already off the turn as he has been able to lay less power down better and get his bike to 100% throttle faster.

Earlier in this post, i mentioned throttle opening dyno charts. This is a true way to look at the engine. 100% means very little other than potential top speed not counting aerodynamics.
The graph below shows a bone stock k8 1000 and a bone stock 2008 R1. Both on my dyno. True readings, no BS here.
The charts are showing the power both make in SAE correction (the blade makes 6bhp and the R1 makes 4bhp more using STD correction on these tests).
If you read the top of the chart you will see that i am showing both bikes power at 20% throttle and also at 100% throttle.
There is not a lot in it but the R1 definately stomps the gsxr at 20% throttle from 6-9k rpm which is where you are opening the taps coming off a turn if you look at the logging i showed a few pages back.

Now i am not favouring any motorcycle here or trying to say the R1 is awesome. I’m merely trying to point out that dyno numbers are hugely misunderstood and in no way does a 100% dyno chart show a bikes potential power delivery. There is so much more to it than meets the eye. What i’ve shown here is just a small amount of detail. If i had my own way, the perfect bike would have a suzuki cylinder head with yamaha build quality with honda weight italian looks. Oh i forgot to mention kawasaki … errr, yea, they make great paper weights …

How these bikes go on the road in the real world is down to you guys. I would choose the bike you like the look and feel of as there really is so little to choose between them all on performance.

Tim Radley

Just got off the phone with my friend Yushu Sukahomo in Japan. He said that engine made 185 at his shaft in that test which less 5% is 175 to the tyre. He said “i no shure what aklapovic did, maybe they put clack cocaine in their pipes”. The plot thickens …

[Jay]

Eugene, that is by far, your best posting ever! Sorry mate

What an insight by Tim. For him to share that in-depth and professional expertise is fantastic. Very clear, objective and myth-busting!

But really, it’s not helping me with my bike decision. I’ve mentally committed to the K8 750 and now I see things like this which make me reconsider. Bummer. Hrm, nope, I’ve made the right choice. I hope

I need to also go read up on the fly-by-wire throttle system. I want to know how it calculates the optimum opening, i.e. does it take into consideration power output (which will obviously change with a tune, or when the engine ages) and traction to the ground. Surely it can’t be a static system that doesn’t take into effect environmental conditions or engine performance? But then the 09 R1 has no traction-control does it? So traction can’t be a variable.

[lamree]

Thanks for that Afro, was an informative read! I admire the guy for continually trying to explain this to people that can’t be bothered to try and understand what he’s going on about…

[Jay]

Click through for high-quality (better sound):

https://www.youtube.com/v/Nh_485SEJq4&hl=en&fs=1

https://www.youtube.com/v/6n5mDDAUj5c&hl=en&fs=1

My body does this weird shivering thing when I hear the new long-bang motor. Jesus, it’s compelling.

[bikerboy]

Jay (14/01/2009)

Eugene, that is by far, your best posting ever! Sorry mate

But really, it’s not helping me with my bike decision. I’ve mentally committed to the K8 750 and now I see things like this which make me reconsider. Bummer. Hrm, nope, I’ve made the right choice. I hope

Have to agree with you Jay, by far Afro’s best post! Definitely worth the read.

Oh, and yes the R1 will be truely amazing, but for the road it has to be the 750.

[Stripled]

Ha, loved the ‘ten inch **** wide as a straw’ line - some good, no nonsense stuff there.

It’s all about usable, real world performance - I know a few road riders who tuned early R1’s for more power - err, why, any of us actually ride past that kind of machines ability?

Here the sound of deflated Dyno chart owners…

[Jay]

That’s why I’m going back to a 750. I’m looking forward to being able to use more of its performance potential. The Gixxer 1000 was awesome, but really, it was suffering in the corners with me as I couldn’t use the power without risk of visiting the moon. Mind you, it was a hell of a lot of fun being a few bike lengths down out of a corner and then opening the throttle, feeling the second bank of injectors kick in and all of a sudden you’re a few bike lengths in front of the bike

[Afro]

Glad you guys liked that.

I mentioned Londonbikers to Tim on the R1 forum. Maybe he’ll pop in.

Jay, the Yamaha Chip Controlled Throttle works by taking inputs from sensors measuring engine rpm, throttle opening, unburnt fuel in the exhaust (02 sensor), engine temperature, air temperature and intake air pressure.

I got that info here

[ChunkyMonkey]

Great find Afro:cool:

I still don’t get it… Whay are IL4’s trying to be like Vee Twins?

They just can’t accept the facts can they?;):P:D

Love the comment about IL4’s being “Stupid Fast”;)

[Jay]

Thanks Eugene.

[OrangeSpoon]

thanks for the post, very interesting
the new bike sounds great

[rusty]

The more I hear and see of the new R1, the more I want one

I’m looking forward to the dealers getting the demo bikes in as I’m really wanting a test ride!

[Bazzer107]

[quote]
Afro (15/01/2009)

I mentioned Londonbikers to Tim on the R1 forum. Maybe he’ll pop in.
quote]

Tim Radley posted a lot on 600rr.net and gave out loads of helpful info on what tuning worked. He even gave away some free info on how to get an extra 3bhp for the cost of another set of intake stacks, see below.

For all those that followed the other stack mod threads, i have further useful info on a stock motor this time.To do this you will need 2 sets of standard stacks which are very cheap to buy. Simply take to them with a hacksaw by cutting a dead straight line vertically down right in the centre of each pair, straight through the middle of the centre rear bolt hole. Do this to 4 pairs and then bolt all 4 short ones back into the airbox. Took me 20 minutes.

Result, just over 3bhp gain.

[Jay]

Ah, but 3bhp where?